Is atheism a belief?

[Abaddon_ire]

There is no such (woo) entity that used to labeled "mind".
We ARE our neuro-biology. There is no evidence for anything else.

Here's a well-known PHD psychologist explaining it.





Topics in subjective neurological experience.
http://www.frontiersin.org/research-topi...nomenology

It's all very interesting.  A very entertaining video, and a good pop science introduction to the relationship between brain and mind.  We've talked about a lot of this right here in these forums-- especially in discussions about free will vs. determinism.  In fact, I don't think this video introduced anything that we HAVEN'T discussed, at some point-- for example, we've even talked about Phineas Gage on multiple occasions.  And, in case you think you understand my position, I once argued that given brain determinism and its implication for free will, a punitive legal system represented philosophical hypocrisy.  I don't believe you would have expected me to take that position.


You should note two things, though:

1)  I've never argued that the brain, its structure, its functions, our experiences and our behaviors as human beings aren't very much linked.  The philosophical question is at what level of material organization the most essential elements of mind emerge.  You think you know the answer to that, but you cannot demonstrate it to be true, and nobody else has demonstrated it to be true.  And I myself never asserted panpsychism to be true-- I said IF it is true, then I'd be well-disposed to those who would call the Universe the mind and body of God.  If.

2)  While you are very certain of material monism, there's a problem: literally every "objective" observation made by people, ever, in all history, has been done through subjective agency: looking at a ruler, poking the brain with an electrode, looking at fMRI machines, listening to your professors, watching this Youtube video.  100%.  In other words, if the human species has evolved to be born with the blue pill in its mouth, you'd never know it from your observations.

3)  There's still, after about 100 years of the field of psychology, no good description of how any material system could allow for subjective experience.  There's an increasing body of neural correlates-- "When X brain function is observed, people report Y experience, when XX brain system is damaged, people's behavior changes in YY ways."  What there isn't, however, is any understanding at all of how subjective experience arises rather than not, in ANY physical system including the brain.

4)  You've made an explicit appeal to this man's authority, i.e. via his credentials.  However, he doesn't claim to be an expert on the philosophy of mind.  It's not surprising that a neuroscientist is going to talk about interesting things he knows about the brain-- but if he had explained why there is subjective experience rather than a lack of it in the Universe, you could have added "Nobel prize winner" to his credentials.


Let's give a different question, so I can explain in what way you and I are not on the same page.  Let's say I asked why a plane flies.  You could point to the wings, and show that damage to them causes a plane to fly badly or not at all.  You could show all the wires or electronic systems which control the ailerons are all needed-- you could perhaps give a few formulae for fluid dynamics showing how speed over a curved surface reduces pressure.

In the end, though, the real question of flying isn't ultimately about that-- it comes down to an interaction among forces, ultimately tracing back to the 4 universal forces.  A good physicist could tell you how those forces interact to create the pressure differential that allows a dense object to maintain its elevation in a fluid of lower density.  But a good brain scientist cannot point to any such thing-- all they can do (as the man in this video has done) is wave toward the brain and discuss interesting correlations between structure and behavior.  All he can do, in other words, is point to wings and jet engines in a more entertaining way than you or I could.

Now you are simply being dishonest.

Face it, you are a solipsist, the single most useless and embarrassing philosophical position to take. 

But you are also aware how vapid a position that is. So vacuous it is that you are sufficiently self aware that you understand the need to hide it.

Oh and I have flown a plane in real life. Your quip about flight Not being  about wing geometry but it is about wing geometry is so bad  that it becomes funny.Especially when one has actually done it. Essentially what you are attempting is to compare the Wright brothers to the Boeing Corporation. And you have not noticed what a stupid idea that is.

Having hurled yourself on that hand grenade of idiocy, you roll right on in to the claim that neurologists know nothing about the brain or how it works. 

Because WTF?

[Belacqua]

What about the brain makes a person with it experience consciousness?

For what it's worth, I think you're describing everything here just right. 

It's very frustrating that everyone thinks it's so easy to object to what you're saying, yet every objection just reveals that they don't understand the issues involved. After all the previous threads about qualia and p-zombies and all that, you'd think it would all be clear. 

Just the fact that people need to type childish insults indicates that probably there's something emotional going on. Something is preventing the understanding of things that aren't really so hard.

[bennyboy]

Now you are simply being dishonest.

Face it, you are a solipsist, the single most useless and embarrassing philosophical position to take. 

But you are also aware how vapid a position that is. So vacuous it is that you are sufficiently self aware that you understand the need to hide it.

If I were a solipsist, then from whom would I be hiding my true views, and by whom would I be embarrassed? And if you were a figment of my own mind, why wouldn't your arguments be more original and intelligently presented?

Oh and I have flown a plane in real life. Your quip about flight Not being  about wing geometry but it is about wing geometry is so bad  that it becomes funny.Especially when one has actually done it. Essentially what you are attempting is to compare the Wright brothers to the Boeing Corporation. And you have not noticed what a stupid idea that is.

It's like you are deliberately trying to make yourself a case in point.  You are having trouble with proximate cause vs. ultimate cause, and not getting that this example was about that.

Ultimately, a plane flies because it brings the forces in the Universe into balance in a particular way-- ultimately, it is the existence of those forces, which we take as brute fact, which allows for flight.

Having hurled yourself on that hand grenade of idiocy, you roll right on in to the claim that neurologists know nothing about the brain or how it works. 

Because WTF?

None of this ever happened.  In fact, I mentioned several things neurologists know about the brain and how it works, and even demonstrated a memory of specific cases in which the ideas in the linked video had been talked about in AF in the past.  Before WTF-ing my ideas, maybe you should read and understand them first.

I mean, you can keep throwing hysterical insults if you like, but surely you should know that such weak arguments will just reinforce my belief that you are expressing ingrained memes rather than meaningful thoughts?

[Angrboda]

So I guess I'm just not comfortable making this clear distinction between belief and knowledge as if they were wholly different. 

They may not be readily distinguishable, but that's an epistemological problem, and doesn't in itself argue that they are not wholly different, only that it is difficult to identify when one is the one, or when it is the other.

[bennyboy]

What about the brain makes a person with it experience consciousness?

For what it's worth, I think you're describing everything here just right. 

It's very frustrating that everyone thinks it's so easy to object to what you're saying, yet every objection just reveals that they don't understand the issues involved. After all the previous threads about qualia and p-zombies and all that, you'd think it would all be clear. 

Just the fact that people need to type childish insults indicates that probably there's something emotional going on. Something is preventing the understanding of things that aren't really so hard.

The blue pill is real.  The irony is that in one generation, it presents as faith in ancient myths, and in another, an irrationally confident belief in a purely objective reality, even though the concept of objectivity itself must be experienced through subjective agency in order to exist.

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They may not be readily distinguishable, but that's an epistemological problem, and doesn't in itself argue that they are not wholly different, only that it is difficult to identify when one is the one, or when it is the other.

Please forgive me, but would you mind specifying which one or the other you mean?  I'm interested in what you're saying, but I don't want to get it wrong.

[Belacqua]

doesn't in itself argue that they are not wholly different, only that it is difficult to identify when one is the one, or when it is the other.

It's always belief. If it's correct, it's also knowledge.

[Shell B]

Just to add:

It's only funny if the swearing is funny. Randomly saying fuck you dickhole is perhaps funny and embarrassing. Uncontrollably blurting really obscene words that are pretty specific is not at all a pleasant experience. Thankfully in my case it only happens in private when I'm alone. Brains can be really weird at times.

Agreed. I saw a documentary once where a guy with Tourettes would tell his friend that he had ginger pubes, a very complex tic. They would both have a laugh about it because it really was funny, but it can certainly sometimes just be a random swear that's simply more embarrassing than entertaining.

For Tibs, who I hope doesn't mind that I bring him up as an example, but he's quite public here about having the syndrome, swearing isn't part of the package. However, he often makes these (I think) cute noises that people mistake for hiccups and sneezing. He gets advice for stopping hiccups and "bless yous" when we're out in public regularly. One woman, from three aisles over in a CVS, panicked and thought someone was choking. Haha. She was cute. At home, he is much louder. Brains are weird like that.

[The Grand Nudger]

doesn't in itself argue that they are not wholly different, only that it is difficult to identify when one is the one, or when it is the other.

It's always belief. If it's correct, it's also knowledge.

Is the correctness of a postulate not also a belief?

[bennyboy]

It's always belief. If it's correct, it's also knowledge.

Is the correctness of a postulate not also a belief?

No, I think correctness is a philosophical fact, at least sometimes.  But the idea that you are correct is for sure a belief.

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For Tibs, who I hope doesn't mind that I bring him up as an example, but he's quite public here about having the syndrome, swearing isn't part of the package. However, he often makes these (I think) cute noises that people mistake for hiccups and sneezing. He gets advice for stopping hiccups and "bless yous" when we're out in public regularly. One woman, from three aisles over in a CVS, panicked and thought someone was choking. Haha. She was cute. At home, he is much louder. Brains are weird like that.

You said it was close to you, but I didn't know how close.  Given that, your restraint is admirable, and the respect I already have for you just got a bump.

[Shell B]

I've learned from the best that there are people with ill intent and people who are either ignorant of the illness or don't mean anything by their comments. Tibs would much rather people talk about it and learn about it than fight about it. That said, he's given me leave to rip people a new asshole if they're rude to him after an incident where I yelled at an old lady in a craft store. So, before I go up in your esteem, remember that I brought the ruckus in a fucking craft store of all places.