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Are you the monster you want to be?
#21
RE: Are you the monster you want to be?
Jor, you're not a monster. Sometimes you might come off strong, but not a monster. Don't beat yourself up I think you've mellowed in our brief time of exchanges together.

(December 18, 2018 at 2:18 pm)onlinebiker Wrote: The sad truth about mud westling with pigs -- at some point you come to the realization that the pig is enjoying it.
That's hilariously ironic with a comment I made to some others recently. You just have no idea.

Meantime , https://www.popsci.com/radical-politics-metacognition
Quote:University College London offers some insight into one characteristic of those who hold extreme beliefs—their metacognition, or ability to evaluate whether or not they might be wrong.
...
“Widening polarization about political, religious, and scientific issues threatens open societies, leading to entrenchment of beliefs, reduced mutual understanding, and a pervasive negativity surrounding the very idea of consensus,” the researchers write. Understanding the role that metacognition plays in this polarization may help us step back from it.

So extremists are galvanized by their own extremism, who knew? j/k seriously though, I find it fascinating the correlations between extreme views and emotionalism, and selective bias and a lessening of metacognition to reinforce already skewed beliefs. I don't know why we can't just laugh away extremists, when they claim the sky is chartreuse, oh wait that's because in application it holds real influence over societies. Whether you are your own personal monster or whether anyone can be, it's still on the viewer how they react to that not the monster.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post

always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
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#22
RE: Are you the monster you want to be?
(December 18, 2018 at 4:43 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: I don't hate you Drich.  How many times do I have to say that before it will sink into that thick skull of yours?

Side question.  Have you actually read Nietzsche?

Not as a study, but I have researched his world view enough to see it's the foundation many 'self' centered  belief structures. I know of several of his more popular quotes and the reasoning behind them. I've study nihilism as a point of discussion but again not in depth..
over all as a person and a philosopher I'm not impressed. at best I would call him an observationist who saw how things worked and described them easily enough. but to be a philosopher one must be more than an observationist otherwise if you can not hone and sharpen your observations to have other's only see your conclusions then you fail as a philosopher. So again Not impressed. At best I would see him and an observationist of the human condition.

Because from what I see he is laying the seeds of an oppressive society by selling the illusion of freedom from God, in his dual morality system. Mater/slave morality. which gave rise to one superior race dominates all others. Which is why Hitler gravitated towards the teaching of this nut bag. He in his personal philosophy had ultimately a different conclusion, but was not a strong enough philosopher to sell people to his way of thinking. Which is Why Hitler took his base moral code and twisted it to sell the germans in thinking they were all 'masters' or where there to support the masters of deutschland. In this regard hitler becomes a better philosopher the Mr. Friedrich.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sb0erqaNU24

I would not go so far as to say no nietzsche no hitler, but I would say 1/3 of hitler's platform about the master race and world domination would not had have the same foundation and appeal as it ultimately did. Nietzsche carved a path through the hearts of the pre war german people and hitler paved it making it quick and simple to polarize the people against the world.

And even in the 1960's he fails again as a philosopher as the hippy movement adopts principles/observations he made but twisted them into the whole dirt foot free love hippy movement which again is not his intention. Which is why I say he is a poor philosopher. he makes good observations as people like hitler and the hippies use them to bond and manipulate people into thinking they have some inside track on the world, but fails to come to the same societal conclusion he himself would have.
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#23
RE: Are you the monster you want to be?
(December 18, 2018 at 6:13 pm)ignoramus Wrote: I grew up with a monster. My father.
After unravelling him, I promised myself to never ever be like him.

The price I pay is ultra diplomacy and avoid needless confrontation with everyone irl.
Drama for the sake of drama ... No thanks.

I had the pleasure of telling the Y-donor that I had described myself as living in a single-parent home all my life.

I also pissed on his grave. Hehe
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#24
RE: Are you the monster you want to be?
I'm not the monster I want to be yet, but I'm getting there. Fingers crossed.
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#25
RE: Are you the monster you want to be?
@Drich:

Well, given your frequent emphasis on using primary sources rather than secondary sources, I find it odd that you would form conclusions about him based on secondary sources alone. I haven't read him myself, being allergic to reading and all, but I hear that he is a difficult philosopher to categorize or say definite things about. He is a very literate philosopher, from all I'm told, so I think it would likely be a mistake to judge him without having read him. As to his contribution to the ideology of the Nazis and 30s Germany, I have studied that, but I don't recall the specifics. I believe the general conclusion was that attempting to draw a straight line between Nietzsche and those ideologies is a mistake, and that he was largely misrepresented by them, but that's a weak memory, at best. I would have to read him and study him to draw any conclusions. Not having done so, I must remain somewhat agnostic as to his whole programme. I find some of his pithier quotes prescient and useful, independent of any relation to his greater philosophy, such as the monster quote. I think it stands on its own merits, whether or not Nietzsche's philosophy itself does so.
[Image: extraordinarywoo-sig.jpg]
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#26
RE: Are you the monster you want to be?
Kinda like the Incredible Hulk, there are times when I don't want the monster at all, and other times I want to go and smash things. The trick is in balancing out the two. Admittedly, still working on that one. If I had a motto for myself, it might be, "Within all things, find a healthy balance"
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#27
RE: Are you the monster you want to be?
(December 19, 2018 at 11:28 am)Drich Wrote: Because from what I see he is laying the seeds of an oppressive society by selling the illusion of freedom from God, in his dual morality system. Mater/slave morality. which gave rise to one superior race dominates all others. Which is why Hitler gravitated towards the teaching of this nut bag.

Some of what you say concerning Nietzsche is on point. But it isn't quite correct to associate him with fascism. Nietzsche believed that the best ruling system was an aristocracy ("rule of the better"). The societies he hold up as exemplars of this way of rule are are the Greeks (before they implemented democracy) and the Romans (before their empire began its decline). What interested Nietzsche considering these two societies was their respective value systems before and after each one entered into decadence. In their primes, Greece and Rome favored the proud over the humble, the brave and powerful over the merciful, men over women... in short, these cultures valued the strong over the weak or (if you will) the master over the slave.

Nietzsche's focus wasn't so much on which morality system (slave or master) is ideal to enact in society. Looking at any culture from the outside, Nietzsche thought you could gauge the health of that society according to which value system was on top. If a society has a strong master morality in it, it is probably a healthy and thriving culture which will create things in its future. If the culture has come to be dominated by slave values, that indicates that the culture is finished creating and is simply "waiting to die." To Nietzsche, things like democracy and Platonism appearing in ancient Greece indicated that Greece was finishing up its creative period and starting to die. Christianity taking hold of Rome indicated much the same thing. The soft, peace-loving hippies appearing in Western culture would indicate decline to Nietzsche. They wanted peace, equality among the sexes, and a society of coexistence. Ironically (considering what happened in Rome) the "Christian society" of the 1960s who fought the waxing influence of hippie culture would be interpreted by Nietzsche as the last defenders of the master morality in America. You see, in Rome, the Christians were the "hippies" trying to circumvent the old master morality of Rome (by elevating the weak to the moral equal of the strong etc.) In 1960s America, the Christians took the role of "the old masters" preventing decline and weakness in their society.

In short, Nietzsche was no nihilist. He wanted societies that valued strength, perseverance, and overcoming-- so that they could create. He saw philosophy as being a tool that the weak used to confuse the strong (same thing with Christianity and democracy). To him, once the weak overcome the strong, there are no values. So in the end, he saw himself as an opponent of nihilism. Because Christianity valued weakness, it ultimately unraveled itself. To Nietzsche, things like Marxism are nothing more than the next inevitable metamorphosis of Christianity. Christianity can't help but become Marxism because "Christianity leads out of itself"... as does Marxism. Thus, to Nietzsche, all slave morality systems are ultimately nihilistic because they eventually end up undermining their own values. Anything that undermines its own values it necessarily nihilistic. The value system which refuses to be toppled... the value system that stands under its own strength... that, to Nietzsche, is the antithesis to nihilism.
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#28
RE: Are you the monster you want to be?
(December 19, 2018 at 3:15 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote:
(December 19, 2018 at 11:28 am)Drich Wrote: Because from what I see he is laying the seeds of an oppressive society by selling the illusion of freedom from God, in his dual morality system. Mater/slave morality. which gave rise to one superior race dominates all others. Which is why Hitler gravitated towards the teaching of this nut bag.

Some of what you say concerning Nietzsche is on point. But it isn't quite correct to associate him with fascism. Nietzsche believed that the best ruling system was an aristocracy ("rule of the better"). The societies he hold up as exemplars of this way of rule are are the Greeks (before they implemented democracy) and the Romans (before their empire began its decline). What interested Nietzsche considering these two societies was their respective value systems before and after each one entered into decadence. In their primes, Greece and Rome favored the proud over the humble, the brave and powerful over the merciful, men over women... in short, these cultures valued the strong over the weak or (if you will) the master over the slave.

Nietzsche's focus wasn't so much on which morality system (slave or master) is ideal to enact in society. Looking at any culture from the outside, Nietzsche thought you could gauge the health of that society according to which value system was on top. If a society has a strong master morality in it, it is probably a healthy and thriving culture which will create things in its future. If the culture has come to be dominated by slave values, that indicates that the culture is finished creating and is simply "waiting to die." To Nietzsche, things like democracy and Platonism appearing in ancient Greece indicated that Greece was finishing up its creative period and starting to die. Christianity taking hold of Rome indicated much the same thing. The soft, peace-loving hippies appearing in Western culture would indicate decline to Nietzsche. They wanted peace, equality among the sexes, and a society of coexistence. Ironically (considering what happened in Rome) the "Christian society" of the 1960s who fought the waxing influence of hippie culture would be interpreted by Nietzsche as the last defenders of the master morality in America. You see, in Rome, the Christians were the "hippies" trying to circumvent the old master morality of Rome (by elevating the weak to the moral equal of the strong etc.) In 1960s America, the Christians took the role of "the old masters" preventing decline and weakness in their society.

In short, Nietzsche was no nihilist. He wanted societies that valued strength, perseverance, and overcoming-- so that they could create. He saw philosophy as being a tool that the weak used to confuse the strong (same thing with Christianity and democracy). To him, once the weak overcome the strong, there are no values. So in the end, he saw himself as an opponent of nihilism. Because Christianity valued weakness, it ultimately unraveled itself. To Nietzsche, things like Marxism are nothing more than the next inevitable metamorphosis of Christianity. Christianity can't help but become Marxism because "Christianity leads out of itself"... as does Marxism. Thus, to Nietzsche, all slave morality systems are ultimately nihilistic because they eventually end up undermining their own values. Anything that undermines its own values it necessarily nihilistic. The value system which refuses to be toppled... the value system that stands under its own strength... that, to Nietzsche, is the antithesis to nihilism.

Do you have a source for this?  Some of the claims seem questionable, so I'm curious about who came to these conclusions.  Not saying it's a wrong synopsis of the person's view, but still would like to know the origin of it. Thanks in advance. Smile
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#29
RE: Are you the monster you want to be?
(December 19, 2018 at 3:28 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote:
(December 19, 2018 at 3:15 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: Some of what you say concerning Nietzsche is on point. But it isn't quite correct to associate him with fascism. Nietzsche believed that the best ruling system was an aristocracy ("rule of the better"). The societies he hold up as exemplars of this way of rule are are the Greeks (before they implemented democracy) and the Romans (before their empire began its decline). What interested Nietzsche considering these two societies was their respective value systems before and after each one entered into decadence. In their primes, Greece and Rome favored the proud over the humble, the brave and powerful over the merciful, men over women... in short, these cultures valued the strong over the weak or (if you will) the master over the slave.

Nietzsche's focus wasn't so much on which morality system (slave or master) is ideal to enact in society. Looking at any culture from the outside, Nietzsche thought you could gauge the health of that society according to which value system was on top. If a society has a strong master morality in it, it is probably a healthy and thriving culture which will create things in its future. If the culture has come to be dominated by slave values, that indicates that the culture is finished creating and is simply "waiting to die." To Nietzsche, things like democracy and Platonism appearing in ancient Greece indicated that Greece was finishing up its creative period and starting to die. Christianity taking hold of Rome indicated much the same thing. The soft, peace-loving hippies appearing in Western culture would indicate decline to Nietzsche. They wanted peace, equality among the sexes, and a society of coexistence. Ironically (considering what happened in Rome) the "Christian society" of the 1960s who fought the waxing influence of hippie culture would be interpreted by Nietzsche as the last defenders of the master morality in America. You see, in Rome, the Christians were the "hippies" trying to circumvent the old master morality of Rome (by elevating the weak to the moral equal of the strong etc.) In 1960s America, the Christians took the role of "the old masters" preventing decline and weakness in their society.

In short, Nietzsche was no nihilist. He wanted societies that valued strength, perseverance, and overcoming-- so that they could create. He saw philosophy as being a tool that the weak used to confuse the strong (same thing with Christianity and democracy). To him, once the weak overcome the strong, there are no values. So in the end, he saw himself as an opponent of nihilism. Because Christianity valued weakness, it ultimately unraveled itself. To Nietzsche, things like Marxism are nothing more than the next inevitable metamorphosis of Christianity. Christianity can't help but become Marxism because "Christianity leads out of itself"... as does Marxism. Thus, to Nietzsche, all slave morality systems are ultimately nihilistic because they eventually end up undermining their own values. Anything that undermines its own values it necessarily nihilistic. The value system which refuses to be toppled... the value system that stands under its own strength... that, to Nietzsche, is the antithesis to nihilism.

Do you have a source for this?  Some of the claims seem questionable, so I'm curious about who came to these conclusions.  Not saying it's a wrong synopsis of the person's view, but still would like to know the origin of it. Thanks in advance. Smile

Slave/master morality system is articulated in Beyond Good and Evil. The stuff about decline is mentioned throughout his works, but the most clear description of the phenomenon is outlined in a chapter of Nietzsche's Twilight of the Idols. I'm taking stuff from a bunch of sources (all books by Nietzsche) put together with a few years of reflection.

If a particular item seems questionable, quote it from my last post, and I will dig up the corresponding work by Nietzsche and quote the passage if you'd like. It would be fun for me, actually. Been steeped in Plato a bit too much lately.

edit: here's my last point touched upon in The Will to Power

Quote:1. Nihilism stands at the door: whence comes this uncanniest of all guests? Point of departure: it is an error to consider "social distress" or "physiological degeneration" or, worse, corruption, as the cause of nihilism. Ours is the most decent and compassionate age. Distress, whether of the soul, body, or intellect, cannot of itself give birth to nihilism (i.e., the radical repudiation of value, meaning, and desirability). Such distress always permits a variety of interpretations. Rather: it is in one particular interpretation, the Christian-moral one, that nihilism is rooted.

2. The end of Christianity--at the hands of its own morality (which cannot be replaced), which turns against the Christian God (the sense of truthfulness, developed highly by Christianity, is nauseated by the falseness and mendaciousness of all Christian interpretations of the world and of history; rebound from "God is truth" to the fanatical faith "All is false"...
http://nietzsche.holtof.com/Nietzsche_th...book_I.htm
(see the bold)
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#30
RE: Are you the monster you want to be?
(December 18, 2018 at 2:14 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: I recently bowed out of a discussion, citing irritability as the reason my behavior had been out of sorts, and that I wanted to establish a more certain handle on my tone before proceeding further.  While that is certainly true, and concern for my relationship with another member definitely motivated my response, that is not the entire story, either.  In doing research for a signature line to use on another forum, I came across the following line from Nietzsche.  

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster."

It gave me some pause to consider my own behavior, both recently, as well as in light of the recent forum drama.  I certainly do not want to back down in my responsibility as an ethical person to fight for the things that I believe in, even if that means at some times I become a monster in doing so.  Excess in defense of virtue is no vice, they say.  I'm not sure about that, but I wonder any more if I'm the monster that I want to be or whether being the monster has in some sense taken over from other virtues and behaviors that I might be neglecting.  As a consequence, though I feel it somewhat undeserved, and the person doesn't seem particularly interested in honest debate anyway, I now find myself on someone's ignore list.  Perhaps that was inevitable.  Perhaps not.  And my irritability concerning another newer member has left me antagonizing them somewhat unnecessarily.  I don't know if I want to like that person or not, but I'd rather keep that chance open for the time being, rather than close it off through sheer laziness and habit.  Slamming moronic twats like Drich?  Yeah, I got no problem with that.  Many times I'm perfectly fine with playing the monster.  However, I'm beginning to wonder if erring on the side of caution might be more prudent, and if I have not inadvertently become someone whom I'm not sure that I want to be.

What about you?  If you are, likewise, occasionally the monster, are you the monster that you want to be?  Or am I simply making a tempest in a teapot?

I am not a monster and I know that, is just what monsters would say. If you look at my avatar, I am quite the dextrous cat. Meow.
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