Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: March 28, 2024, 5:59 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
How could we trust our consciousness ?!
#31
RE: How could we trust our consciousness ?!
(December 26, 2018 at 2:16 pm)polymath257 Wrote:
(December 26, 2018 at 2:06 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: It's likely true that our behaviors need to reliably produce survival, but it's not necessarily true that the truths that our minds refer to actually be true, only that believing them to be true leads to successful, pro-survival behaviors.  It's entirely possible that we do all the right things, but for all the wrong reasons.  So long as we do the right things, how would we go about determining that the reasons we did them were the right reasons?  There doesn't appear to be a way out of this quandary.

But in order to do the right things, the interpretation has to have *some* correlation with reality. of course we don't see the entire picture: we don't see radio waves, for example, nor infrared. But what we do see does correspond to at least part of what is 'out there'. If it did not, it would seem quite unlikely that we would be able to do the 'right thing' even for survival.

If it can work in some possible world, then it can work in the actual world. It can work that way in some given possible world, therefore it can work that way in our world. Probability or likelihood is just an intuition that you project onto the brute possibility. The true situation is that you have know way of knowing what the likelihood of this being the case is. You assert that it is unlikely, likely simply because you find the argument that successful behavior necessarily requires correct interpretations of reality, but that argument is flawed, because it isn't necessary that it do so, and so your estimate of the likelihood of the converse is also flawed, and for that reason.
[Image: extraordinarywoo-sig.jpg]
Reply
#32
RE: How could we trust our consciousness ?!
(December 26, 2018 at 6:59 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:
(December 26, 2018 at 2:16 pm)polymath257 Wrote: But in order to do the right things, the interpretation has to have *some* correlation with reality. of course we don't see the entire picture: we don't see radio waves, for example, nor infrared. But what we do see does correspond to at least part of what is 'out there'. If it did not, it would seem quite unlikely that we would be able to do the 'right thing' even for survival.

If it can work in some possible world, then it can work in the actual world.  It can work that way in some given possible world, therefore it can work that way in our world.  Probability or likelihood is just an intuition that you project onto the brute possibility.  The true situation is that you have know way of knowing what the likelihood of this being the case is.  You assert that it is unlikely, likely simply because you find the argument that successful behavior necessarily requires correct interpretations of reality, but that argument is flawed, because it isn't necessary that it do so, and so your estimate of the likelihood of the converse is also flawed, and for that reason.

Hmm....I tend to find the notion of possible worlds to be rather incoherent also. How do we know whether a system is consistent or not? It really isn't an issue that is easy to resolve (see Godel's work).

In any case, the simple fact that something consistently works is enough for me to say it is real. The *definition* of the 'real world' is via models made upon observation and testing. That is also the underlying definition of 'existence'. There is no guarantee the conclusions are 'correct' in some philosophical sense. But that isn't a reasonable approach in any case. Alternative, internally consistent, descriptions that predict the same observations are equivalent theories.

So, as a matter of argument, how would a remarkably wrong interpretation lead to results that are consistent enough to allow survival?
Reply
#33
RE: How could we trust our consciousness ?!
That's why I coined the term Truth-In-Context ™. 1) It's all I care about, because my existence is in a particular context; 2) Truth doesn't need to be rooted in anything beyond experience.
Reply
#34
RE: How could we trust our consciousness ?!
(December 26, 2018 at 4:48 am)Mr.Obvious Wrote: You trust/use it, cause it's THE best you got. You just realize it's not prefect in it's analyses of THE world around you.

you mean I have no choice?  Doh 
Either I accept the world as it is or I commit suicide  Truce

(December 26, 2018 at 5:01 am)Amarok Wrote: If you have a better option ...
 I dont Sad
We have to take What we perceive..

(December 26, 2018 at 6:42 am)Thoreauvian Wrote:
(December 26, 2018 at 1:53 am)zainab Wrote: If consciousness is a product of evolution, how can we trust its outputs?

We can't, thus science and logic.  Welcome to the world of skeptics.

I dont want to be a skeptist  Tut Tut
I will feel that I am paralyzed .. I will not be able to take any action or even take a stand in any Case !!!!
Reply
#35
RE: How could we trust our consciousness ?!
(December 27, 2018 at 2:16 am)zainab Wrote:
(December 26, 2018 at 4:48 am)Mr.Obvious Wrote: You trust/use it, cause it's THE best you got. You just realize it's not prefect in it's analyses of THE world around you.

you mean I have no choice?  Doh 
Either I accept the world as it is or I commit suicide  Truce

(December 26, 2018 at 5:01 am)Amarok Wrote: If you have a better option ...
 I dont Sad
We have to take What we perceive..
Yup for better or worst

Quote:I dont want to be a skeptist  [Image: tut-tut.gif]
It 's possible to be a skeptic but still make claims with some certainty 


Quote:I will feel that I am paralyzed .. I will not be able to take any action or even take a stand in any Case !!!!
Paralyzed against who?
Seek strength, not to be greater than my brother, but to fight my greatest enemy -- myself.

Inuit Proverb

Reply
#36
RE: How could we trust our consciousness ?!
(December 26, 2018 at 9:01 am)Amarok Wrote: [url=https://atheistforums.org/post-1872132.html#pid1872132][/url]


Quote:If consciousness is a product of evolution, how can we trust its outputs?
And it should not be because ?

Our consciousness was not designed to realize the world .. It grew up and evolved for our survival
Reply
#37
RE: How could we trust our consciousness ?!
(December 27, 2018 at 2:16 am)zainab Wrote:
(December 26, 2018 at 4:48 am)Mr.Obvious Wrote: You trust/use it, cause it's THE best you got. You just realize it's not prefect in it's analyses of THE world around you.

you mean I have no choice?  Doh 
Either I accept the world as it is or I commit suicide  Truce


I guess, if you're a defeatist who values clarity and objectivity so much that without it, life becomes unbareable.

Most of us aren't like that, but Hey, you do you.
"If we go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, suggesting 69.
[Image: 41bebac06973488da2b0740b6ac37538.jpg]-
Reply
#38
RE: How could we trust our consciousness ?!
(December 27, 2018 at 2:45 am)Amarok Wrote:
(December 27, 2018 at 2:16 am)zainab Wrote: you mean I have no choice?  Doh 
Either I accept the world as it is or I commit suicide  Truce

 I dont Sad
We have to take What we perceive..
Yup for better or worst

Quote:I dont want to be a skeptist  [Image: tut-tut.gif]
It 's possible to be a skeptic but still make claims with some certainty 


Quote:I will feel that I am paralyzed .. I will not be able to take any action or even take a stand in any Case !!!!
Paralyzed against who?

(December 27, 2018 at 4:19 am)Mr.Obvious Wrote:
(December 27, 2018 at 2:16 am)zainab Wrote: you mean I have no choice?  Doh 
Either I accept the world as it is or I commit suicide  Truce


I guess, if you're a defeatist who values clarity and objectivity so much that without it, life becomes unbareable.

Most of us aren't like that, but Hey, you do you.

Nooooo, i will survive Sad
Reply
#39
RE: How could we trust our consciousness ?!
(December 27, 2018 at 2:16 am)zainab Wrote: I dont want to be a skeptist  Tut Tut
I will feel that I am paralyzed .. I will not be able to take any action or even take a stand in any Case !!!!

What do you think a skeptic is?
Reply
#40
RE: How could we trust our consciousness ?!
(December 27, 2018 at 2:16 am)zainab Wrote:
(December 26, 2018 at 6:42 am)Thoreauvian Wrote: We can't, thus science and logic.  Welcome to the world of skeptics.

I don't want to be a skeptic.  Tut Tut
I will feel that I am paralyzed. I will not be able to take any action or even take a stand in any case !!!!

Skeptics emphasize the unreliability of human perceptions and assumptions among other things. However, that doesn't paralyze us in most cases because we still understand we must all act by our best guesses, by probabilities rather than certainties. Think of skepticism as a variety of humility in the face of the facts. Even mistakes can be useful feedback.

Skepticism is also a big motivator for certain kinds of action, like learning more and being more careful, rather than jumping to conclusions based on too little information or cultural and personal prejudices.

(December 27, 2018 at 4:11 am)zainab Wrote: Our consciousness was not designed to realize the world .. It grew up and evolved for our survival

A highly developed consciousness is just one of many evolved strategies for survival among various species. It has also lent itself to understanding the world in remarkable detail, as a bonus. We just have to be careful in how we apply it. Thus science and logic.
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Can we trust our Moral Intuitions? vulcanlogician 72 3593 November 7, 2021 at 1:25 pm
Last Post: Alan V
  Good read on consciousness Apollo 41 2404 January 12, 2021 at 4:04 am
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  Would you get rid of your sexual desire if you could? Macoleco 78 12048 October 16, 2017 at 12:41 pm
Last Post: brewer
  Consciousness Trilemma Neo-Scholastic 208 54820 June 7, 2017 at 5:28 pm
Last Post: bennyboy
  Trying to simplify my Consciousness hypothesis Won2blv 83 13540 February 21, 2017 at 1:31 pm
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  My thoughts on the Hard problem of consciousness Won2blv 36 5448 February 15, 2017 at 7:27 am
Last Post: bennyboy
  A hypothesis about consciousness Won2blv 12 3898 February 12, 2017 at 9:31 pm
Last Post: Won2blv
  If You Could Choose Your Own Desires Edwardo Piet 34 3306 November 12, 2016 at 1:43 pm
Last Post: Thumpalumpacus
  Foundation of all Axioms the Axioms of Consciousness fdesilva 98 13545 September 24, 2016 at 4:36 pm
Last Post: Bunburryist
  Consciousness is simply an illusion emergent of a Boltzmann brain configuration.... maestroanth 36 5390 April 10, 2016 at 8:40 am
Last Post: Little lunch



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)