On the subject of Hell and Salvation

[MilesAbbott81]

I'd like to point something out. There are hundreds of millions, if not more, of people around the world who will Never, Ever discover Jesus or the Christian faith, and yet STILL be sentenced to eternal torment for not believing in something they've never even heard of according to Christians. WTF? HOW CAN PEOPLE JUSTIFY THAT???

I got off the phone with a family friend yesterday and it turns out that she thinks Christianity (Heaven, Hell, Bible) is bullshit too. I brought this up and she actually AGREED with me.

Here is something to consider: "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it." (Matthew 7:13-14)

Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps this "majority" of Christians believing the doctrine of eternal torment are among those on the broad way, headed to destruction? Yes, many popular/prominent preachers teach espouse this doctrine, but what does the subsequent verse warn against? Here: "Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves." (Matthew 7:15)

You have to enter through the narrow gate, and that means (at least in part) not judging the Bible by what most people think it says. Only God can provide the Truth, which He will gladly give to those genuinely seeking Him. I should stress "genuinely," because many will claim that they've sought Him genuinely or that they are currently seeking Him genuinely, but they're mistaken. Truly, you can't know your own heart, at least not until God reveals it to you. As Jeremiah wrote: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9)


Humility necessitates acknowledging that you could be wrong. You shouldn't throw out the baby (the Bible) with the bathwater (the doctrine of eternal torment).

[Abaddon_ire]

I'd like to point something out. There are hundreds of millions, if not more, of people around the world who will Never, Ever discover Jesus or the Christian faith, and yet STILL be sentenced to eternal torment for not believing in something they've never even heard of according to Christians. WTF? HOW CAN PEOPLE JUSTIFY THAT???

I got off the phone with a family friend yesterday and it turns out that she thinks Christianity (Heaven, Hell, Bible) is bullshit too. I brought this up and she actually AGREED with me.

Here is something to consider: "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it." (Matthew 7:13-14)

Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps this "majority" of Christians believing the doctrine of eternal torment are among those on the broad way, headed to destruction? Yes, many popular/prominent preachers teach espouse this doctrine, but what does the subsequent verse warn against? Here: "Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves." (Matthew 7:15)

You have to enter through the narrow gate, and that means (at least in part) not judging the Bible by what most people think it says. Only God can provide the Truth, which He will gladly give to those genuinely seeking Him. I should stress "genuinely," because many will claim that they've sought Him genuinely or that they are currently seeking Him genuinely, but they're mistaken. Truly, you can't know your own heart, at least not until God reveals it to you. As Jeremiah wrote: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9)


Humility necessitates acknowledging that you could be wrong. You shouldn't throw out the baby (the Bible) with the bathwater (the doctrine of eternal torment).

How certain are you of all of that. Could you be wrong?

[MilesAbbott81]

Here is something to consider: "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it." (Matthew 7:13-14)

Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps this "majority" of Christians believing the doctrine of eternal torment are among those on the broad way, headed to destruction? Yes, many popular/prominent preachers teach espouse this doctrine, but what does the subsequent verse warn against? Here: "Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves." (Matthew 7:15)

You have to enter through the narrow gate, and that means (at least in part) not judging the Bible by what most people think it says. Only God can provide the Truth, which He will gladly give to those genuinely seeking Him. I should stress "genuinely," because many will claim that they've sought Him genuinely or that they are currently seeking Him genuinely, but they're mistaken. Truly, you can't know your own heart, at least not until God reveals it to you. As Jeremiah wrote: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9)


Humility necessitates acknowledging that you could be wrong. You shouldn't throw out the baby (the Bible) with the bathwater (the doctrine of eternal torment).

How certain are you of all of that. Could you be wrong?

Yes, I could be wrong. Of course, I'm in a much different position than most people, because the Lord has given me many confirmations that I'm not wrong. Most people are still searching for God; I happen to already know Him. I'm not saying that to boast, I'm merely pointing out that someone in a position of faith can't exactly be compared to someone who is still searching in terms of certainty.

But yes, I have to acknowledge the fact that I could be wrong. Faith wouldn't be called faith if it were something observable or provable.

[FatAndFaithless]

Yes, I could be wrong. Of course, I'm in a much different position than most people, because the Lord has given me many confirmations that I'm not wrong. Most people are still searching for God; I happen to already know Him. I'm not saying that to boast, I'm merely pointing out that someone in a position of faith can't exactly be compared to someone who is still searching in terms of certainty.

But yes, I have to acknowledge the fact that I could be wrong. Faith wouldn't be called faith if it were something observable or provable.

Bolded mine. You must realize how utterly unconvincing that is.  Literally any Christian could genuinely think that they have received confirmations of their beliefs from God, and honestly believe it, and use that fact to support a belief contradictory to the beliefs of another Christian.

[MilesAbbott81]

Yes, I could be wrong. Of course, I'm in a much different position than most people, because the Lord has given me many confirmations that I'm not wrong. Most people are still searching for God; I happen to already know Him. I'm not saying that to boast, I'm merely pointing out that someone in a position of faith can't exactly be compared to someone who is still searching in terms of certainty.

But yes, I have to acknowledge the fact that I could be wrong. Faith wouldn't be called faith if it were something observable or provable.

Bolded mine. You must realize how utterly unconvincing that is.  Literally any Christian could genuinely think that they have received confirmations of their beliefs from God, and honestly believe it, and use that fact to support a belief contradictory to the beliefs of another Christian.

I wasn't attempting to convince anyone, I was merely stating my position, which is all the fellow asked me to do. And I wouldn't use my confirmations as proof in an argument. We're called to walk by faith and not by sight, so I argue on a Scriptural basis and with other appropriate materials as necessary.

[fredd bear]

How certain are you of all of that. Could you be wrong?

Yes, I could be wrong. Of course, I'm in a much different position than most people, because the Lord has given me many confirmations that I'm not wrong. Most people are still searching for God; I happen to already know Him. I'm not saying that to boast, I'm merely pointing out that someone in a position of faith can't exactly be compared to someone who is still searching in terms of certainty.

But yes, I have to acknowledge the fact that I could be wrong. Faith wouldn't be called faith if it were something observable or provable.

Apologies if this has been covered:

I've always found it difficult to understand how an infinitely compassionate, infinitely just God could condemn anyone to a place of eternal torture. I won't even start on the problem of evil. 

The concept of an eternal hell is a Christian invention. It does not exist in Judaism, although the term' sheol' is used, once.

In Christianity, the concept grew, probably from the vague Roman ideas if an afterlife. This would have occurred  after Paul, who made it acceptable for gentiles s to join the club.

The response below from the Bart Ehrman blog:

"Ah, this is a great question, and as with all great questions, it does not have an easy answer!   I give a short version of the answer in my book Jesus Interrupted, in the chapter on “Who Invented Christianity,” where I discuss the “invention” of heaven and hell.   I don’t mean, of course, that anyone actually invented them, but I think the idea that such places exist were not the original ideas of Jesus and his followers, but were later developments among Christian thinkers in later times.   And since these ideas did not exist at one point among Christians, and then later became very much Christian ideas, then in that sense, SOMEBODY came up with them (or lots of somebodies), and that would involve their “invention.”"

https://ehrmanblog.org/the-invention-of-...r-members/

(there is a vast amount of information on this topic online)

OF COURSE I may be wrong. That's why I call myself  an agnostic atheist .IE I do not believe in god(s) the soul, angels, demons, an afterlife, the paranormal,  dragons, mountain trolls or fairies at the bottom of my garden, due to lack of proof.  But,I don't know, I may be wrong.

I make no claims, so have no burden of proof. That pleasure belongs to those who make any claims about god; his existence or non existence

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Note to apologists. I don't  usually try to discus anything with apologist ,because: 

Basic problem; a belief in God. I am absolutely ready to join deists in their beliefs-- the instant they prove the existence of God.

It it is my perception that apologists are immune to facts or reason. That religious belief is about faith (belief in things unseen) rather than science or reason .I'm unable to accept that

Luther said reason is the enemy of belief. 


       “Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.”

― Martin Luther

[GrandizerII]

How certain are you of all of that. Could you be wrong?

Yes, I could be wrong. Of course, I'm in a much different position than most people, because the Lord has given me many confirmations that I'm not wrong. Most people are still searching for God; I happen to already know Him. I'm not saying that to boast, I'm merely pointing out that someone in a position of faith can't exactly be compared to someone who is still searching in terms of certainty.

But yes, I have to acknowledge the fact that I could be wrong. Faith wouldn't be called faith if it were something observable or provable.

Faith is not knowledge. Repeat after me: faith is not knowledge.

I grant that you believe. I won't accept that you know God exists.

[MilesAbbott81]

Yes, I could be wrong. Of course, I'm in a much different position than most people, because the Lord has given me many confirmations that I'm not wrong. Most people are still searching for God; I happen to already know Him. I'm not saying that to boast, I'm merely pointing out that someone in a position of faith can't exactly be compared to someone who is still searching in terms of certainty.

But yes, I have to acknowledge the fact that I could be wrong. Faith wouldn't be called faith if it were something observable or provable.

Faith is not knowledge. Repeat after me: faith is not knowledge.

I grant that you believe. I won't accept that you know God exists.

First, to fredd bear (not quoting since it's a large quote): the doctrine of eternal torment was just one of several pagan ideas that slowly infiltrated the "church" over the years. It's not even really a product of nominal Christendom, because nominal Christendom itself is a product of paganism. There are plenty of tenets of so-called Christianity that are clearly pagan, such as the trinity, eternal torment, Christmas and Easter, and probably some other ones I can't remember at the moment. That is why nominal Christendom is referred to as the whore, Mystery Babylon, in the book of Revelation. Spiritual fornication has rendered her a system of confusion and blasphemy.

To Grandizer: God has made His existence crystal clear to everyone. Believing otherwise takes far more faith than any religion.

[GrandizerII]

To Grandizer: God has made His existence crystal clear to everyone.

It's not clear to me at all.

Believing otherwise takes far more faith than any religion.

As usual, someone who has no idea what it takes to be an atheist.

[fredd bear]

To Grandizer: God has made His existence crystal clear to everyone.

It's not clear to me at all.

Believing otherwise takes far more faith than any religion.

As usual, someone who has no idea what it takes to be an atheist.

Indeed.

Of course some atheists make  positive claims, such as "There is no God" or "I believe there is no god" . A position as difficult as any theist's
position; such assertions attract the burden of proof

Speaking  for myself and most atheists I've met, atheism is about the absence of belief, not the presence of anything, except perhaps a critical mind. 

This is one position. Getting a large bunch of atheists to agree on just about anything is like herding cats.