On the subject of Hell and Salvation

[Astreja]

To Grandizer: God has made His existence crystal clear to everyone. Believing otherwise takes far more faith than any religion.

Your mind-reading skills need some work, Miles. In all of my years, I've never been able to see the god of the Bible as anything more than fiction. I am also incapable of religious faith, so you got that wrong too. *heavy sigh*

[Godscreated]

instead of using a useless picture that atheist produced bring the verses one at a time and we will see just how little you know.

I did give you the exact verses in the picture, so you're just pretending they don't exist as you do with all other stuff, including Homo Erectus, that mess up your desire to belive in the validity of the Bible.

I saw the verses in your little picture which by the way explains nothing. Like I said if you want to discuss this topic bring one verse at a time and your explanation of the verse and we'll go over the verse and any that would relate to it, otherwise bug off, I'm tired of your nonsense. Homo Erectus  you mean ape-a-toid right.

GC

[MilesAbbott81]

To Grandizer: God has made His existence crystal clear to everyone.

It's not clear to me at all.

Believing otherwise takes far more faith than any religion.

As usual, someone who has no idea what it takes to be an atheist.

I know precisely what it takes to be an atheist, and I'll explain that for you because it's something that you've perhaps never considered, and it's something you should take very seriously. I'm not going to get into a lengthy debate about particular points of argument, because I've had enough of these conversations to know that they never go anywhere.

Atheism is complete and total idiocy. It goes far beyond mere stupidity. And the "interesting" thing here is that most atheists aren't idiots, therefore another element is at work. That element is sin. Now I don't know precisely what sin drove you in particular to be an atheist, but I do know that the general disease among atheists is intellectual pride.

You all think you've figured it all out. You think your intellect and the intellectual integrity of mankind is beyond reproach, and fail to realize that not only do we know very little in the scientific sense, but much of the knowledge we have is inherently corrupt because of hubris. It's hubris to think we can understand things that have occurred in the distant past in the far reaches of space when we're still theorizing about the very makeup of the core of the earth beneath our feet. Mankind's knowledge is built upon sand, and always has been, which is why these sands are constantly shifting and proving scientists to be shamefully wrong, even destructively wrong. I could probably write endlessly of the ways mankind is currently destroying itself in the literal sense because of arrogant scientists who have no idea what they're doing and refuse to listen to reason because they couldn't possibly be wrong.

Your absence of humility, you atheists, is what is destroying you. You're wise in your own eyes, therefore the Lord has made you all fools. It is you who believe in the existence of unicorns and fairies and ludicrous theories like that of the Big Bang. God's existence is plain to all who have not been blinded by their Creator, which is exactly what He has done to you. You think I'm wrong? God is omnipotent; blinding people is as easy as snapping His fingers. But you will almost certainly say that you see, and so your sin will remain.

You all need to repent, or even as those on whom the Tower of Siloam fell, you will likewise perish.

[GrandizerII]

I know precisely what it takes to be an atheist, and I'll explain that for you because it's something that you've perhaps never considered, and it's something you should take very seriously. I'm not going to get into a lengthy debate about particular points of argument, because I've had enough of these conversations to know that they never go anywhere.

Ok fine, let's see what you've got for me. Hoping for an honest and productive discussion.

Atheism is complete and total idiocy. It goes far beyond mere stupidity. And the "interesting" thing here is that most atheists aren't idiots, therefore another element is at work. That element is sin. Now I don't know precisely what sin drove you in particular to be an atheist, but I do know that the general disease among atheists is intellectual pride.

You all think you've figured it all out. You think your intellect and the intellectual integrity of mankind is beyond reproach, and fail to realize that not only do we know very little in the scientific sense, but much of the knowledge we have is inherently corrupt because of hubris. It's hubris to think we can understand things that have occurred in the distant past in the far reaches of space when we're still theorizing about the very makeup of the core of the earth beneath our feet. Mankind's knowledge is built upon sand, and always has been, which is why these sands are constantly shifting and proving scientists to be shamefully wrong, even destructively wrong. I could probably write endlessly of the ways mankind is currently destroying itself in the literal sense because of arrogant scientists who have no idea what they're doing and refuse to listen to reason because they couldn't possibly be wrong.

Your absence of humility, you atheists, is what is destroying you. You're wise in your own eyes, therefore the Lord has made you all fools. It is you who believe in the existence of unicorns and fairies and ludicrous theories like that of the Big Bang. God's existence is plain to all who have not been blinded by their Creator, which is exactly what He has done to you. You think I'm wrong? God is omnipotent; blinding people is as easy as snapping His fingers. But you will almost certainly say that you see, and so your sin will remain.

You all need to repent, or even as those on whom the Tower of Siloam fell, you will likewise perish.

Yeah ... nah ... you don't know what you're talking about. Just rambling.

[Fake Messiah]

I saw the verses in your little picture which by the way explains nothing.

Hey, tell it to the flat earthers, just like Christians that see six day creation in the Bible as bullshit should tell you few things.

And indeed that is the nature of Bible: it is supposed to be divinely inspired text and yet it's easily misunderstood that some people think how six day creation is real while other see it as a metaphor and acknowledge evolution and they all have best intentions -- and yet God supposedly chose this way to communicate with people.

[possibletarian]

I wasn't attempting to convince anyone, I was merely stating my position, which is all the fellow asked me to do. And I wouldn't use my confirmations as proof in an argument. We're called to walk by faith and not by sight, so I argue on a Scriptural basis and with other appropriate materials as necessary.

Okay, lets start with this.

1) What position are you stating, a faith one ?
2) You use scripture, on what basis do you use scripture ?
3) Why wont you use your confirmations as proof ?

[MilesAbbott81]

I wasn't attempting to convince anyone, I was merely stating my position, which is all the fellow asked me to do. And I wouldn't use my confirmations as proof in an argument. We're called to walk by faith and not by sight, so I argue on a Scriptural basis and with other appropriate materials as necessary.

Okay, lets start with this.

1) What position are you stating, a faith one ?
2) You use scripture, on what basis do you use scripture ?
3) Why wont you use your confirmations as proof ?

Sure.

1) Yes, I wasn't talking about the existence of God, which I believe to be self-evident. I was referring to my particular brand of Christian faith. It's not a sect; there is only Truth and error. You can only walk in one or the other.

2) Not sure what you mean by "basis." The foundation of all Truth is Jesus Christ, and it is through Him that I interpret Scripture. That's the only way one can. Of course, many claim to have that foundation when they don't, taking His name in vain. It's a big problem and the reason there is so much confusion in nominal Christendom.

3) I sort of explained this already, but I'll be a bit more specific. Faith isn't about signs and wonders (confirmations), so the effect they have is limited. Even if you believed what I could share, it probably wouldn't help you. They're also somewhat specific to me, and some of them I'm not free to share. My point is that the starting point for faith shouldn't be about these things, it should be about the Truth, and where we all really need to begin is with repentance, which involves recognizing our evil natures and taking responsibility for our actions.

[possibletarian]

1) Yes, I wasn't talking about the existence of God, which I believe to be self-evident.

What basis do you use to call it self evident, i assume you have faith that it is, but what reason do you have to assure yourself that faith true ?

I was referring to my particular brand of Christian faith. It's not a sect; there is only Truth and error. You can only walk in one or the other.

what is 'walking' in truth ? and how would one know they had achieved this ?

2) Not sure what you mean by "basis." The foundation of all Truth is Jesus Christ,

Where do you get that information from ? and how are you sure it's true to make such a bold statement ?

and it is through Him that I interpret Scripture. That's the only way one can.

How do you know this to be true ? what about the scripture sets it aside as truth ?

Of course, many claim to have that foundation when they don't, taking His name in vain. It's a big problem and the reason there is so much confusion in nominal Christendom.

So how do you know your particular interpretation is true, as opposed to not true ?

3) I sort of explained this already, but I'll be a bit more specific. Faith isn't about signs and wonders (confirmations), so the effect they have is limited. Even if you believed what I could share, it probably wouldn't help you. They're also somewhat specific to me, and some of them I'm not free to share.

Okay, I get that and understand it.

My point is that the starting point for faith shouldn't be about these things, it should be about the Truth, and where we all really need to begin is with repentance, which involves recognizing our evil natures and taking responsibility for our actions.

Yes most people recognise when they do wrong, and that they are indeed responsible and stop what they are doing, one might even say evil insofar as it is a word to describe acts which do us grievous harm. But wouldn't you need proof before faith in any deity, indeed in any usefulness of repentance to any deity.

If you are saying that in effect you have to have faith, to well have faith, wont that get you safely to any deity, belief or idea ?

[MilesAbbott81]

What basis do you use to call it self evident, i assume you have faith that it is, but what reason do you have to assure yourself that faith true?

Logic is sufficient to determine the existence of God; faith is unnecessary. It's not difficult to see that creating something from nothing is clearly impossible, therefore a being capable of performing impossible tasks must have created everything. There are plenty of other reasons. The practical impossibility of the random creation of a single protein, or the even more distant (if such a thing can even be quantified) probability of functional DNA...the amazing symmetry and design found in nature despite entropy...the reasons supporting the existence of God are practically endless. The reasons for denying His existence are literally zero, so long as one has the correct arguments. You can argue which God He is, but only the Christian God aligns perfectly with the correct arguments.  

what is 'walking' in truth ? and how would one know they had achieved this ?  

Good question. Walking in Truth is walking with Jesus Christ. That doesn't mean one has all of the answers, it means that one doesn't have to have all of the answers because he or she has the Solution to all problems, Jesus Christ. It's not about knowledge, it's about looking to God instead of to yourself. It's not really an "achievement," it's something that happens by the grace of God alone. It's a gift.

Where do you get that information from ? and how are you sure it's true to make such a bold statement ?

Well, the answer here is partly faith, but I've never seen the Truth contradicted. The Truth always prevails, because it's true. You'll know when you see it because it makes itself evident in the same way God's existence is evident. It will resonate with you.

How do you know this to be true ? what about the scripture sets it aside as truth ?

Again, partly faith, but I've never seen anyone successfully contradict the Truth. Of course, there are very few people living today who know the Truth, and an abundance of those claiming to know but who are more or less clueless.

So how do you know your  particular interpretation is true, as opposed to not true ?  

Sorry to repeat myself, but again, faith and the fact that I've never seen the Truth successfully contradicted. People certainly despise the Truth, but they're unable to defeat it.

Yes most people recognise when they do wrong, and that they are indeed responsible and stop what they are doing,  one might even say evil insofar as it is a word to describe acts which do us grievous harm.   But wouldn't you need proof before faith in any deity, indeed in any usefulness of repentance to any deity.

If you are saying that in effect you have to have faith, to well have faith, wont that get you safely to any deity, belief or idea ?

I'm not saying faith begets faith, although this isn't entirely false. Faith begins with grace. There is nothing one can do to earn it; it's a gift, as Paul writes in Ephesians:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God..." (Ephesians 2:8)

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Yes most people recognise when they do wrong, and that they are indeed responsible and stop what they are doing,  one might even say evil insofar as it is a word to describe acts which do us grievous harm.   But wouldn't you need proof before faith in any deity, indeed in any usefulness of repentance to any deity.

I just wanted to address this part, since I sort of skipped it. Your language is a bit choppy here, but it seems you're saying that people stop what they are doing when they recognize their wrongdoing. This isn't true. People tend to shrug off their wrongdoings, figuring it either isn't a big deal or that they'll do better next time, both of which are faulty assumptions in most cases. Wrongdoing is always serious, and we're incapable of refraining from evil completely in our own power. Only the grace and power of God can keep people from sinning.

Why would you need proof before any useful repentance if faith is what is required? And if you don't currently have faith, that isn't necessarily a problem. It only means that you don't yet have it. It's a gift, and gifts are given at appropriate times. First, God needs to bring you to a place of true spiritual brokenness, where you're genuinely seeking Him because you genuinely want to repent, not because you desire power or glory or knowledge, or because you just want a better life (wanting a better life is part of it, I'm just saying it shouldn't be the only reason).

[Abaddon_ire]

How certain are you of all of that. Could you be wrong?

Yes, I could be wrong. Of course, I'm in a much different position than most people, because the Lord has given me many confirmations that I'm not wrong.

So your position is that you could be wrong and you can't be wrong. Faux humility.

Most people are still searching for God;

False. A moments consideration would tell you why.

I happen to already know Him.

I don't think you can support that claim in any way.

I'm not saying that to boast,

Suuuuuuure.

I'm merely pointing out that someone in a position of faith can't exactly be compared to someone who is still searching in terms of certainty.

Oh yes they bloody well can.

But yes, I have to acknowledge the fact that I could be wrong. Faith wouldn't be called faith if it were something observable or provable.

You are not acknowledging anything other that your own certainty that you are correct.

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To Grandizer: God has made His existence crystal clear to everyone. Believing otherwise takes far more faith than any religion.

Ah you have swallowed that BS christian line.

God has NOT made his existence crystal clear to me, you or anyone. That would obviate faith completely.

Being an atheist takes no faith at all. As an atheist, I do not believe in any god/s of any sort. That is my claim. As evidence, I present me. I believe in no gods at all.

There you go. Affirmative claim made. Absolute evidence provided.

Are you going to wheel out the presuppositionalist crap yet?