On the subject of Hell and Salvation

[MilesAbbott81]

MilesAbbott, again, your faith is not a reliable means to knowledge. You can have your faith, but you can't use that to argue that you know anything and you can't, if you really did care to have an honest discussion with atheists, presuppose the truth of statements that we naturally do not agree with. If you want to talk about God existing, God hating sin, us being sinners, and so on, you have to reason your way to these statements when discoursing with atheists; you can't just simply assert them as true.

Just a little correction here: I don't know that you're an atheist or an agnostic, Grandizer, so I shouldn't have written "you" as though all of this specifically applies to you. I would rephrase this to "if one is an agnostic or atheist, then..."

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Is this the part where you pop out of the closet and yell "boo!" ?

I'm not trying to scare anyone, but I can't help but warn. Well, I should say I hope someone hears me and is afraid. After all:

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all those who practice it have a good understanding. His praise endures forever!" (Psalm 111:10)

If you're not afraid, you will be. Everyone comes to fear the Lord eventually.

[Astreja]

I'm not trying to scare anyone, but I can't help but warn.

Oh, I'm not the least bit scared. I do think that you're a jerk, though, who gets his jollies by pretending to be a spokesman for a god.

If you're not afraid, you will be. Everyone comes to fear the Lord eventually.

Au contraire, monsieur Abbott. One cannot fear something that one believes is fictional, and I think that your god is fictional. I read the Bible 55 years ago, and it's never been anything more to me than a work of very, very old fiction from a comparatively primitive culture.

I believe wholeheartedly that you will never get to meet your god in person, no matter how hard you pray. Never. Not in an infinity of infinities. At the end of your life you will fall unconscious, your heart will stop, hypoxia will cause your brain circuitry to break down, and literally everything you ever believed will simply vanish as if it never existed.

Live life as if this is the only one you will ever get -- because it probably is. The molecules that comprise your body may eventually become part of some other life forms, but "Miles" has a best-before date.

[MilesAbbott81]

I'm not trying to scare anyone, but I can't help but warn.

Oh, I'm not the least bit scared.  I do think that you're a jerk, though, who gets his jollies by pretending to be a spokesman for a god.

If you're not afraid, you will be. Everyone comes to fear the Lord eventually.

Au contraire, monsieur Abbott.  One cannot fear something that one believes is fictional, and I think that your god is fictional.  I read the Bible 55 years ago, and it's never been anything more to me than a work of very, very old fiction from a comparatively primitive culture.

I believe wholeheartedly that you will never get to meet your god in person, no matter how hard you pray. Never.  Not in an infinity of infinities.  At the end of your life you will fall unconscious, your heart will stop, hypoxia will cause your brain circuitry to break down, and literally everything you ever believed will simply vanish as if it never existed.

Live life as if this is the only one you will ever get -- because it probably is.  The molecules that comprise your body may eventually become part of some other life forms, but "Miles" has a best-before date.

We'll see who's right in the end. You will be glad when it isn't you.

I do think I came in here with a bit of a chip on my shoulder, and I apologize for that. I think I've said all that I should say, so I'm going to stop posting in this thread now. Others are free to have the final word.

[Astreja]

We'll see who's right in the end...

No, I don't think either of us will be capable of assessing much of anything after our respective deaths. Regardless of who "wins," neurological science is clear that consciousness requires a functioning brain producing waveforms of specific frequencies.

You will be glad when it isn't you.

Why would I be glad? I'm not interested in eternal life, and I have no intention of worshipping any god that would condemn sentient beings to eternal suffering.

[fredd bear]

I'm not trying to scare anyone, but I can't help but warn.

Oh, I'm not the least bit scared.  I do think that you're a jerk, though, who gets his jollies by pretending to be a spokesman for a god.

If you're not afraid, you will be. Everyone comes to fear the Lord eventually.

Au contraire, monsieur Abbott.  One cannot fear something that one believes is fictional, and I think that your god is fictional.  I read the Bible 55 years ago, and it's never been anything more to me than a work of very, very old fiction from a comparatively primitive culture.

I believe wholeheartedly that you will never get to meet your god in person, no matter how hard you pray. Never.  Not in an infinity of infinities.  At the end of your life you will fall unconscious, your heart will stop, hypoxia will cause your brain circuitry to break down, and literally everything you ever believed will simply vanish as if it never existed.

Live life as if this is the only one you will ever get -- because it probably is.  The molecules that comprise your body may eventually become part of some other life forms, but "Miles" has a best-before date.

 Indeed.

The Torah is the mythology of a tribe of illiterate bronze age goat herders who lacked the wit to invent their own god; IE ;YHWH was a Chaldean god, part of a trinity, they stole him. He also originally had a wife, called 'Asheroth/ Asherah . Fairly strong evidence has recently been found in Israel**


  From making a comparison, I think it's likely that the flood myth of Noah was lifted from the Epic of Gilgamesh.

The Ten Commandments have more than a passing resemblance to parts of Hammurabi's Code. Also from making a comparison.

Never ceases to amaze me how evangelicals  especially emphasise the Torah,  with its petty, nasty, jealous, vindictive sadistic, capricious etc etc  god. When in the New Testament there is an infinitely compassionate God and an emphasis on forgiveness.. This  especially when the concept of an eternal hell is a christian concoction; it does not exist in Judaism

The hell of which what's his name warns us did not even exist at the beginning of christianity, as far as I can tell. Initially ,as far as I can gather, it was similar to the rather vague eRoman concept of the hereafter.


With these warnings about "fearing god" (rather than loving him) and threats of damnation, I'm beginning to suspect the existence of a  fair amount of schadenfreude  . 

[quote pid='1885506' dateline='1550439754']
**The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts, a book published in 2001, discusses the archaeology of Israel and its relationship to the origins and content of the Hebrew Bible. The authors are Israel Finkelstein, Professor of Archaeology at Tel Aviv University, and Neil Asher Silberman, an archaeologist, historian and contributing editor to Archaeology Magazine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_Unearthed


[/quote]

[GrandizerII]

MilesAbbott, again, your faith is not a reliable means to knowledge. You can have your faith, but you can't use that to argue that you know anything and you can't, if you really did care to have an honest discussion with atheists, presuppose the truth of statements that we naturally do not agree with. If you want to talk about God existing, God hating sin, us being sinners, and so on, you have to reason your way to these statements when discoursing with atheists; you can't just simply assert them as true.

I've never said my faith is a reliable means to knowledge. Faith has very little to do with knowledge.

So let me get this clear. You have faith, but you acknowledge it doesn't lead to knowledge of God?

What I'm saying is that all the evidence you need is before your eyes. There is no way to look at our clearly designed world and say it is the result of anything but God. I'm not saying that it's merely wrong to not see, I'm saying it's impossible to not see. If you really can't see it, then God has done the impossible and hidden it from you, and that's because of sin:

"For this reason, God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie, in order that judgment will come upon all who have disbelieved the truth and delighted in wickedness." (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12)

Your being an atheist has nothing to do with you having an opinion or belief of your own. Your atheism is the judgment of God upon you for your wickedness. That's the essence of my argument, really. You'll either read those arguments, which I've written down in greater detail elsewhere, and heed my words, or you'll continue to march headlong into destruction.

Nothing about the world around me points to the Bible God. Unless you have properly reasoned your way to the Bible God (and I strongly doubt it), you are going by mere faith. Again, faith is not knowledge.

[Belacqua]

The Torah is the mythology of a tribe of illiterate bronze age goat herders

The book you link us to indicates that this is wrong. The Torah was written centuries after the Bronze Age.

[Abaddon_ire]

Oh, I'm not the least bit scared.  I do think that you're a jerk, though, who gets his jollies by pretending to be a spokesman for a god.


Au contraire, monsieur Abbott.  One cannot fear something that one believes is fictional, and I think that your god is fictional.  I read the Bible 55 years ago, and it's never been anything more to me than a work of very, very old fiction from a comparatively primitive culture.

I believe wholeheartedly that you will never get to meet your god in person, no matter how hard you pray. Never.  Not in an infinity of infinities.  At the end of your life you will fall unconscious, your heart will stop, hypoxia will cause your brain circuitry to break down, and literally everything you ever believed will simply vanish as if it never existed.

Live life as if this is the only one you will ever get -- because it probably is.  The molecules that comprise your body may eventually become part of some other life forms, but "Miles" has a best-before date.

We'll see who's right in the end. You will be glad when it isn't you.

No we won't. We will all be dead and incapable of finding anything out. If I am wrong, I will find myself standing before an immoral thug who I would reject anyway. On moral grounds. You, by nature, are more moral the the celestial bully that you worship. This forces you to favour slavery, misogyny, elitism, human sacrifice, incest, rape and so forth. You know these things to be wrong, but you abandon your own morality in favour of an imaginary cosmological santa claus who will put presents under your dead moral tree if only you sufficiently grovel.

I do think I came in here with a bit of a chip on my shoulder, and I apologize for that. I think I've said all that I should say, so I'm going to stop posting in this thread now. Others are free to have the final word.

Oh right, waving the white flag of victory is it?

If your ideas were remotely reasonable, then they would gain traction, or at least some robust discussion. But your ideas are so risible that at the first mere hint of any challenge, you run for cover. Your belief is a swiss cheese of holes and you are scared of the holes being identified.

Bluntly, you came to a vigorous discussion board armed with no more than a spork.

The rest of us have a full set of professional chef's knives and we keep them sharp.

Has it ever occurred to you to wonder why it is that your magic sky fairy is so fragile? And ineffectual?

[possibletarian]

"How do you know that?" you constantly ask.

Do you believe in the existence of dark matter? If so, why? Because scientists say it exists? Aren't you just making a declaration, repeating something you don't really understand and have never observed, saying it's true because men have said it's so (when men are proven liars, no less)? Aren't you putting your faith in men concerning this thing, then?

Okay I'm not going to go through the whole things, but let's deal with this matter of convoluting faith we have in say gravity, and faith in a god (of your choice)  

Firstly we really have no idea what Dark Matter is, but we do see it's effects on the universe. Dark Matter is a placeholder name given for something we see the effects of, but have yet to find out what it is maybe one day we will know, maybe we never will.. who knows ?
So yes If i were to ask a scientist to show me the science around it, they could.

How about Pluto? Have you ever bothered to observe it in a telescope yourself? The same concept applies. You're trusting declarations other people say are so. I am obviously not saying that neither of these things exist. That's not at all my point.

Again that's just half the story, if I wanted to see Pluto I could simply ask someone with the knowledge of astronomy to show me, so unless you yourself doubt the existence of Pluto, then yes my faith would be very well founded. and could be proven.  

I say I can see the inherent design in the beauty of nature, how the indescribably complex patterns and processes that exist are surely evidence that it was all designed by a Being Whose intelligence so far exceeds our own that it's literally incomprehensible.

How so ?  Complexity does not mean intelligent design, purpose might but you have not demonstrated a purpose of anything.

These things are observable. It's evidence. It just isn't good enough for you for some reason. Could be a multitude of reasons why, I'm not claiming to know. But I do know that the idea of God threatens our flesh. We like to be in control, we don't like the idea that this reality is under His total and perfect control, and we love our sins, so we resist Him tooth and nail, despite reality screaming in our face.

Maybe you've not been blinded. Maybe you're just stubborn, like most agnostics and atheists. Whatever the case, you're in a very bad place when you can't see or refuse to acknowledge reality. And that goes for anyone in your shoes.

Let's put the hysterics of kicking, screaming, love of sin, to one side for just a minute . Before you attribute anything to god, you first have to prove your god. To claim that anything is so complex that only a intelligent being could have created it is nonsense.

Well, you may not have been trying to be condescending, but it appears you're unable to control yourself. Calling God man-made is a statement of your belief that anyone who believes in God is being stupid because "there's no proof."
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That's not the point. The point is that you're throwing out assumptions that are essentially faith statements. True, you're not speaking definitively, but I could also point to the existence of flying pigs as a possibility too. It's just stupid. The concept of God is not stupid.
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Similar to my last response: yeah, you are happy to say you don't know. Maybe because it makes you appear to have humility, or maybe it's because it makes you happy that your "ignorance" absolves you of not giving your Creator the respect and attention He deserves. When it's all about you, the flesh is quite happy indeed. You are not absolved.

Again this is not about humility, I simply do not know, how else could I  express that without you feeling as though I'm being condescending ?
The point is that you don't either, you cannot possibly have that knowledge.

Yes, they lie, but the Spirit of God doesn't, and when the Spirit is with you, you know that the words in the Bible are true. There are plenty of other reasons, but that's the only one that matters.

So is it all true ?
and how do you know the assurance you have is simply not yourself ?

No, you'd like to know the truth on your terms. Your standards of proof are unreasonable.

I try not to be unreasonable, maybe my standards are high, but surely a supreme being, who wants me to know him would easily be able to meet any standards a mere human could concoct, in fact I'm sure a supreme being would welcome it.

He did after all go about crashing all over the place in the bible, smiting people here and there,  but hey that was written by men and they are liars.

Science has become a god in its own right, and probably billions have died on its altar. People claim science as an authority all the time. You do it below, claiming that the genetic modification of food has been done successfully. That's not true. We have no idea what the effects of genetic modification of food are, although they seem to at the very least point quite directly to causing cancer. Then the pesticides, again a product of science, are used to grow that genetically modified food, polluting the soil, the water, and the food product itself, which also causes cancer and plenty of other nasty health issues according to heaps of research. It's a monstrosity, and you call it successful? See, science does kill people. It's killing you right now, because you've put your trust in its soundness, literally eating its products to sustain your life. It's not sustaining your life, it's ending it.  
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I would consider understanding how to cure diseases a good understanding, because what good is biological knowledge otherwise, beyond the ability to perform surgery and the like? Can we cure AIDS? No, we can't cure viruses yet, despite vast resources thrown into it. Cancer remains a mystery to doctors, who insist that chemotherapy and radiation are decent treatments.
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Want to know how to cure cancer? Well you could probably start by looking at certain practices in Germany that have 90+% efficacy rates. But that's really unnecessary. Water fasting cures cancer, dandelion root powder cures it, heat treatments cure it. Changes in diet are also very effective, particularly in preventing remission. Radiation and chemotherapy are just ways that corrupt men earn money, that's all, and yet people put their trust in them and appeal to their supposed authority in arguments. It's all foolishness.
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You're welcome to do this research on your own; it's not my job to do it for you.

Yes I agree no sane intelligent designer could have designed such a weak disease ridden body, that we have to look for our own cures, but the cures we have come from our own knowledge.
If you have come across a cure for cancer I would have though you consider it your christian duty to spread that good news of your 'magic' cures.
I'm sorry but you really are beginning to sound like you have a problem with reality

See above...it was the Lord who pointed me to this kind of research. Just because He hasn't given it to everyone doesn't mean He has withheld it from everyone.

*bold mine*

Oh boy sorry, he has hidden it from people.. on the internet ?  Such a cunning plan no mere man could conceive it.

I'm sorry i really am going to have to stop here, your claims have now moved well into the realms of disturbed.

[Abaddon_ire]

The Torah is the mythology of a tribe of illiterate bronze age goat herders

The book you link us to indicates that this is wrong. The Torah was written centuries after the Bronze Age.

It's called "hyperbole".

Odd that this needs pointing out.