[Serious] Please convince me gender is binary

[tackattack]

There has been a lot of discussion on it lately, and there's a lot of informed and actual people that struggle with gender. Perhaps I need an education in gender identity, But I only see gender as binary. I'm open to be convinced otherwise. Let me start with a statement, which I'm sure people will jump all over.

I define gender normalcy as that which functions according to its design. Our design is in our DNA as male or female.  Gender identity uses the same words and is thus binary. Is this a true statement? Elucidate me.

PS- I don't think I did the serious tag right, I need an education on that too please

[Brian37]

There has been a lot of discussion on it lately, and there's a lot of informed and actual people that struggle with gender. Perhaps I need an education in gender identity, But I only see gender as binary. I'm open to be convinced otherwise. Let me start with a statement, which I'm sure people will jump all over.

I define gender normalcy as that which functions according to its design. Our design is in our DNA as male or female.  Gender identity uses the same words and is thus binary. Is this a true statement? Elucidate me.

PS- I don't think I did the serious tag right, I need an education on that too please

You messed up by using the word "design". Life evolved, it wasn't designed.

If you are basing your presupposition on "design" you either deny evolution altogether, or you cherry pick it when it suits you.

At this point there is no point in discussing gender identity with you.

[The Grand Nudger]

There has been a lot of discussion on it lately, and there's a lot of informed and actual people that struggle with gender. Perhaps I need an education in gender identity, But I only see gender as binary. I'm open to be convinced otherwise. Let me start with a statement, which I'm sure people will jump all over.

I define gender normalcy as that which functions according to its design. Our design is in our DNA as male or female.  Gender identity uses the same words and is thus binary. Is this a true statement? Elucidate me.

You define gender normalcy as what others call heteronormativity.  Since you do so, it's not surprising that you conclude as much, the conclusion being baked into the premise.  

Meanwhile, gender as a social construct evades binarism and any broad description of heteronormativity (since what is taken to be heteronormative in one society may not be taken to be so in another).

When you hear people discussing the notion that our gender system and preference for binarism may be unfounded, what they're suggesting is that while we do..yes, tell ourselves a story about heteronormativity and assume that this establishes our binarism, that only occludes the fact that we recognize in our lives and selves that this is an insufficient and innacurate representation of gender.  The very fact that we point out non normatives and call them "girly guys" for example..betrays any coherent description of what the heteronormativity is.  They are guys...they're very much likely to be very much like every other guy..but maybe they have long lustrous blonde hair that they tie up in a bow or satin ribbon? 

This, ofc, may actually be heteronormatively masculine in some other long hair satin bow loving culture.

What makes a person a girl, or girly? Or a guy, or guyish? Obviously not their genitalia, or we wouldn't even have a conceptual set for mannish women and effeminate men. If gender were determined by genitalia, than the mere presence of penis would be proof of a persons masculinity...but not even the staunchest of heteronormatives believes that. I know -alot- of girlish guys..how about you? Squemish, ready to surrender their houses to a spider, spend alot of money on product and time in the bathroom..may or may not be wearing just a touch of mascara....wouldn;t even shoot a motherfucker if I asked them too real nice.

You know the type.

[tackattack]

OK, I wasn't intentionally infusing a denial of evolution in my definition.. sigh.. let me try again

I define gender conformity as the opposite of gender nonconformity. They put on our birth records an identity based on our genitalia at birth. Our design is in our DNA (and evolved) as male or female. Gender identity uses the same words and is thus binary. Gender dysphoria or gender identity disorder (or whatever the PC term is) is cognitive dissonance with your assigned gender at birth. Is this a true statement? Elucidate me.

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There has been a lot of discussion on it lately, and there's a lot of informed and actual people that struggle with gender. Perhaps I need an education in gender identity, But I only see gender as binary. I'm open to be convinced otherwise. Let me start with a statement, which I'm sure people will jump all over.

I define gender normalcy as that which functions according to its design. Our design is in our DNA as male or female.  Gender identity uses the same words and is thus binary. Is this a true statement? Elucidate me.

You define gender normalcy as what others call heteronormativity.  Since you do so, it's not surprising that you conclude as much, the conclusion being baked into the premise.  

Meanwhile, gender as a social construct evades binarism and any broad description of heteronormativity (since what is taken to be heteronormative in one society may not be taken to be so in another).

When you hear people discussing the notion that our gender system and preference for binarism may be unfounded, what they're suggesting is that while we do..yes, tell ourselves a story about heteronormativity and assume that this establishes our binarism, that only occludes the fact that we recognize in our lives and selves that this is an insufficient and innacurate representation of gender.  The very fact that we point out non normatives and call them "girly guys" for example..betrays any coherent description of what the heteronormativity is.  They are guys...they're very much likely to be very much like every other guy..but maybe they have long lustrous blonde hair that they tie up in a bow or satin ribbon? 

This, ofc, may actually be heteronormatively masculine in some other long hair satin bow loving culture.

What makes a person a girl, or girly?  Or a guy, or guyish?  Obviously not their genitalia, or we wouldn't even have a conceptual set for mannish women and effeminate men. If gender were determined by genitalia, than the sheer presence of penis would be proof of a persons masculinity.

OK I'm not arguing I don't have preconceptions and bias, I'm aware I do and am seeking to overcome them. You defeated any idea of non-binary when you said "girly guys" or "manish women" . 

It may be a subset, or type of guy or girl, but it's still a guy or girl. Perhaps rather than making declarations about personal pronouns and safe spaces, we could just accept that being a man is about more than just being a jerky jock and being a woman is about more than a maidservant? Wouldn't it just be a shit ton easier if we just accepted that our ideas of what a man and woman are vary based on culture and person proclivity, then what's going on out there now?

[The Grand Nudger]

OK I'm not arguing I don't have preconceptions and bias, I'm aware I do and am seeking to overcome them. You defeated any idea of non-binary when you said "girly guys" or "manish women" . 

It may be a subset, or type of guy or girl, but it's still a guy or girl. Perhaps rather than making declarations about personal pronouns and safe spaces, we could just accept that being a man is about more than just being a jerky jock and being a woman is about more than a maidservant? Wouldn't it just be a shit ton easier if we just accepted that our ideas of what a man and woman are vary based on culture and person proclivity, then what's going on out there now?

 Yes, but, also included in my comments was that the very phrase "type of guy" differs from culture to culture, and things that we place in one heteronormative gender binary here may belong to the other heteronormative gender binary there or even be a common trait of males here regardless of what we tell ourselves about heteronormativity and gender binarism.

People who reject heteronormativity and gender binarism -are- accepting that our ideas of what a man or a woman are, gender...have a basis in culture and personal proclivity, you..if you'll recall, based your ideas on some idea of a natural function, instead.

We could explore that, btw, and by reference to my final comment of heteronormativity from the last post. Would you kill a motherfucker if I asked you real nice? Some of our structural differences with females, as males, are thought to be adaptations to violence...positively lethal violence. That would mean that lethal violence is at least one of your male natural functions. If you're unwilling or hesitent to kill...does that make you less of a type of man?

If a female were more willing to kill..does that make her more of a type of man than you?

[Shell B]

Honestly, I don't really experience gender identity problems myself. Therefore, I am inclined to look at it as binary too, but that's the point. That's only my experience. Lots of people are saying they fall on a spectrum between femininity and masculinity. They sure behave like they do, so I'll take their word for it. There's nothing in my life experience that I could turn to for evidence, so I have to trust that people know how they feel about themselves.

[The Grand Nudger]

(as an interesting sidenote..those traits generally referenced to above are rapidly declining - and ofc there have always been cultures where men..what a man was and what was expected of him, was a primary caregiver for children..the females taking our heteronormatively male roles.)

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-Shell

Yeah, same for me..I can't even imagine what it would feel like to be non normative (even though I know for a fact that some other persons idea of normativity probably excludes me on account of flowers and bows in the hair...lol - and other girlish traits, lol).

[Shell B]

Some people standards of how a certain gender should behave aren't even about their being a spectrum. I wear work boots. I don't want to be a man. I want to practical. A man might paint his nails because he likes being edgy, rather than girly. These stereotypes are the stupid.

[Brian37]

Honestly, I don't really experience gender identity problems myself. Therefore, I am inclined to look at it as binary too, but that's the point. That's only my experience. Lots of people are saying they fall on a spectrum between femininity and masculinity. They sure behave like they do, so I'll take their word for it. There's nothing in my life experience that I could turn to for evidence, so I have to trust that people know how they feel about themselves.

The medical community long ago said that homosexuality was normal. Neurology increasingly is telling us on the issue of gender identity, that our brains do not always match the plumbing we are born with.  Unfortunately bigoted theists would say "see see see" it is not normal, it is just something that needs to be corrected with medicine or therapy. Yep, the same thing was said about homosexuality too.

[Rahn127]

Gender is a biological trait and you can identify with whatever gender you want, but at the end of the day, MOST people are either biologically male or female.
There are people who are biologically neither or have components of both, so that there is no clear cut answer to the binary. These are rare instances.

I refer you to Caster Semenya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya
She would fall into the category of intersex (not male nor female or having attributes of both)
And here is a link the to intersex page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

Biologically gender is not always binary.
Identifying as a man doesn't make you a man, in much the same way that identifying as a dolphin doesn't make you a dolphin.

But those who go to the trouble of presenting themselves as a different gender should be treated according to our social standards of how we treat that gender.
We don't treat men and women the same in society. There are different expectations.

Legally we should treat everyone the same, but most people realize that money can often make many legal problem go away or the lack of money can create more legal and police problems that anyone ever needs.

I am nearly 54 years old and I feel that my age and the generation I grew up in does have a factor in how I view gender.
I view it from a purely biological fashion.


PS.
I identify as The ROCK.....