I Don't Care

[bennyboy]

Also, don't use suicidality as an excuse to police people's behavior. People who are feeling a desire to kill themselves need professional help. It's their responsibility to take the steps necessary to feel better. No amount of being nice to a suicidal person on the Internet is going to save them. For real. The emotion that leads to those feelings is too great to be cured by a "It's okay you hate women. I'm going to be nice to you anyway because I don't want you to kill yourself." Not only is it clearly disingenuous, but it does nothing to address root causes, which is what suicidal people actually need, so let's not reduce it to an oversimplified formula.

Who's talking about policing behavior?  I haven't suggested any rules, or any potential penalties for breaking them.

I'm not even talking about being nice.  But so long as I have a voice, I'm free to say that I think we'd be better off avoiding extremely dehumanizing language.  What's the benefit in telling someone they're a piece of shit, or in calling a trans person a "creature?" Is it so important to put someone in their place? I don't think so.

---

I'm not your wife or one of your other hostage family members, benny.

FYI my wife and I just went for a walk along a nearby stream to enjoy the cherry blossoms which are all over the place, and we bought iced cappuccinos and sat in the park with our dogs playing with our young son. Oh dear, how will she ever live with the pain!?!? How will I live with the guilt?!

How about you, Thena? Basking in the never-ending rainbows and daisies of an eternally perfect relationship that never had any problems, are you? Good for you, I'm glad!

There's no reason why I should cave to your demands to be given free reign to be an ass.

Who said anything like that, ever? I'm saying that we should avoid deeply dehumanizing language, like calling people pieces of shit, because it might do harm, and it does no good. And in the case of people who obviously seem to be troubled, I'm recommending trying to find out more-- maybe something useful can be learned in a non-toxic interaction.

[Athene]

---

You don't  get a free pass to broadbrush, malign,  and attack people unchecked because of having "increased suicidal tendencies" and a mommy who mistreated you. 

Whom have I broad-brushed, maligned, or attacked?  I don't think that ever happened.

Of course, you don't. 
It's "different" when you do it.

And I'm not doing this because I feel I personally am being mistreated, though I'd say your over-the-top displays of aggression in particular border on verbal assault.  I think, in general, it would be better if we erred on the side of tolerance rather than vehemence.  In this case, I've been deeply interested in Yonadav since I heard that he's trans (I never would have guessed it in a million years!), and I wanted to know how that relates to the positions he takes.  But the toxicity has meant that I'm unlikely ever to find out.

I can't take this seriously.
LMFAO...You regard any critique your bullshit of verbal assault, and perceive any rejection of your demands to be given "special consideration" as an act of aggression.

Yet you're the one going around smashing folk's vehicles, throwing TVs, and throwing temper tantrums if you folks don't lie down and let you say and do as you please. 
How utterly sway of you. 

You're full of shit, dude. And it's super obvious.

[bennyboy]

Whom have I broad-brushed, maligned, or attacked?  I don't think that ever happened.

Of course, you don't. 
It's "different" when you do it.

I'm calling bullshit. Link or quote any time I maligned or attacked someone here.

So far as I can recall, the most aggressive thing I've ever said in these forums was about you-- namely that the extremely hyperbolic way you posted once came across as hysterical.

I've certainly never called you, or anyone else, a piece of shit, or denigrated you in any deeply personal way.

[bennyboy]

your demands to be given "special consideration" as an act of aggression.

1) I've never asked for special consideration, much less demanded it.
2) Learn what quote marks are for-- quoting things.

[Athene]

Yawn...Oh, look. More denial, gaslighting, and projection.

I have no doubt that this sort of bullshit is quite effective in keeping your family off balance and subdued, but do understand that it's boring to me.
It's just further confirmation of what a horridly manipulative person you are.

You can continue to...

*Threaten to do withdraw your "support" or engage in far worse if you're not given your way.
*Claim that your rage and shitty conduct is "natural" and/or is the product of mental defect or disease, self-diagnosed or otherwise.
*Make emotional appeals in referencing your sad, dysfunctional childhood.
*Imply that you'll hurt or kill yourself.
*Attempt to portray those who won't allow you to have your way as being the "aggressors" .

Rinse and repeat as often as you like.

The answer's still no, benny. 

No pass.

[bennyboy]

Yawn...Oh, look. More denial, gaslighting, and projection.

I have no doubt that this sort of bullshit is quite effective in keeping your family off balance and subdued, but do understand that it's boring to me.
It's just further confirmation of what a horridly manipulative person you are.

I'm gonna go way out on a limb and say that you're the one projecting.  Tell us about your well-balanced, rich and rewarding love life, Thena.  Tell us about your deep satisfaction with your family situation, and about how your sunny disposition keeps everyone around you smiling.  Tell us about the psychological good health and personal balance which serves as a guiding light for your behavior-- because based on the way you talk, I'd say that your problems are at least as severe as mine.  If you really think that dumping on me, or insulting my relationship with my family, will improve your view of yourself, then I have to say that is probably not going to happen.

Being honest about real feelings and events in life, and trying to understand how people arrive at that place, is a valuable pursuit, and with all due respect to whatever it is that tilts you so much about this discussion, I will continue discussing it until I've learned what I can.  But it's pretty clear that "the lady doth protest too much."  Here we are, in a thread entitled "I don't care," and you are showing how much you don't care by typing dozens or hundreds of lines about what a horrible person you think I am, and how unfortunate my poor family are to have to deal with me. 

Why don't you open up a bit?  Instead of hiding behind your toxicity, why don't you share something a little more meaningful?  No matter what else anyone thinks about me, I can guarantee that anyone who is troubled and looking for an ear to listen will find an attentive one in mine.

And consider what this thread is about and my position-- that we should restrain ourselves from using dehumanizing or excessively hostile language. Do you really despise me so much that you can look at that kind of sentiment, and see only an attempt to manipulate? How about this-- I give open reign for you to shit all over me. Make a thread about me-- list all the horrible things I've done, and all the many ways in which I should rightly suffer for them. Punish me for my attempt to manipulate, content in the knowledge that I deserve whatever you dish out or more. But beyond that, maybe find a little room in your heart not to dehumanize anyone else, or support the dehumanization of others.

[I_am_not_mafia]

With all due respect? You know nothing about the struggle of trans people and you dehumanise their existence by refusing to see beyond their medical history or what they look like all the while complaining about being dehumanised yourself. And then you white knight a misogynist and transphobe because he claims to be transssexual. I'd accuse you of being a hypocrite but I suspect that you are actually willfully ignorant.

Have I ever attempted to dehumanize anyone, ever?  Did I refuse to see someone beyond their medical history or what they look like?  I don't think that happened.

I have to be straight up.  If a trans person made out with me, and I didn't know, I'd consider it a kind of sexual assault.  I don't know what I'd do-- maybe laugh and shrug my shoulders, maybe get violent.  

At the risk of being genderist, I saw enough to believe that trans women had some of the rapacious or aggressive tendencies that "normal" men have, and if that manifested the wrong way (say in someone trying to drug and trick me into a sexual encounter), I might potentially have reacted violently.  I was a pretty nice kid, but living on the streets can bring out the claws sometimes.

In general, if I wasn't high, and I thought I was making out with XX-female and you hadn't told me, I'd say my reaction would have been negative.  I feel the first kiss should be the cut-line: I'd want you to tell me before the first kiss, or I would feel that you had violated me.

You clearly see trans-women as men in disguise. This nullifies everything they have been through, their struggle to be accepted and erases part of their core identity. It detransitions them. This dehumanises them. No matter what you say, you cannot get away from this.

And this post of yours at the end of the thread tells me that nor do you want to think that you could ever end up sleeping with a transsexual.

Eh, I'm calling bullshit. I'm 100% certain if I was face-to-face with a vagina, I'd recognize if it was the real thing or not. There's so much going on there-- the textures, the smell (it changes from start to finish like a Willy Wonka's everlasting gobstopper), the milky lubrication if you're doing it right, the ways the muscles ripple during orgasm. You simply can't fake all of that.

I know for a fact that a straight transphobic man can sleep with a transsexual on repeated occasions and never know. I have seen it with my own eyes. Deny this and you are calling me a liar. I have also personally closely inspected two neo-vaginas and can tell you, unless you are a gynecologist, you would not know the difference. And by closely inspected I mean legs wide open on her back for my personal perusal.

Bennyboy please stop pretending to care about trans people. Your post above suggesting that the PC crowd are stopping trans people curing themselves with therapy leading them to self harm, presumably you mean by transitioning, shows you do not. You clearly think of trans women as men and that is the gravest insult you can give them. So cut it out and just be honest.

  I'm advocating for especial care in demeaning trans people, because I know about the psychological problems associated with gender dysphoria.  People aren't just born trans in the way that they're black or white, male or female-- the troubles run deeper than that-- and I don't think you will disagree with that, will you?

Absolute disagree 100%. Do you also advocate gay conversion therapy? After all, by your standards people aren't born gay therefore it can be counselled away. Whereas many transsexuals know from their earliest memories when they came to recognise that male and female exists, that they identified with the gender that they weren't assigned to at birth.

Thing is that I don't think that you are a hypocrite. I just think that you have completely the wrong idea about what transsexuality is. And considering how difficult it is even for most transsexuals to figure themselves out, I can't blame you for that.

Whatever you think about my motivations or my sincerity, can we not agree that calling people pieces of shit, or calling trans people "creature," are things we can live without? 

I'll happily agree to that.

[bennyboy]

You clearly see trans-women as men in disguise. This nullifies everything they have been through, their struggle to be accepted and erases part of their core identity. It detransitions them. This dehumanises them. No matter what you say, you cannot get away from this.

First of all, let me say thank you for a well thought-out and well-expressed post. I will answer with the care that it deserves.

I would say that not identifying someone the way they identify is not dehumanizing. I'm not putting a negative valuation on any body form or psychological association with it. I don't think trans-women are men in disguise. Nor do I think they are identical in all regards to most females of the human species. They are something different than either-- but they are certainly fully human, and I wouldn't want to put them down for expressing themselves however they like.

Now, if someone wanted to be treated as a woman, then I'd be happy to oblige. If she wanted to engage in sex (something I think is pretty unlikely anyway), then I'd decline, because I'm not interested in having a sexual relationship with a trans person.

Eh, I'm calling bullshit.  I'm 100% certain if I was face-to-face with a vagina, I'd recognize if it was the real thing or not.  There's so much going on there-- the textures, the smell (it changes from start to finish like a Willy Wonka's everlasting gobstopper), the milky lubrication if you're doing it right, the ways the muscles ripple during orgasm.  You simply can't fake all of that.

I know for a fact that a straight transphobic man can sleep with a transsexual on repeated occasions and never know. I have seen it with my own eyes. Deny this and you are calling me a liar. I have also personally closely inspected two neo-vaginas and can tell you, unless you are a gynecologist, you would not know the difference. And by closely inspected I mean legs wide open on her back for my personal perusal.

It may be that I'm wrong about this, but I don't think so. I think the things I mentioned-- the way the smell changes during lubrication, the way the walls of the vagina pulse during orgasm, and so on, cannot be reproduced. I don't know how many men notice those things, but I'm particularly fascinated by the female body, and I've definitely noticed them. In fact, if I were unable to stimulate a woman to get those results, I would probably be worried that she found me unattractive.

However, there may be XX women who might not respond the way I expect, either. I'm perfectly open to the possibility that I'd be less able to tell than I thought.

Absolute disagree 100%. Do you also advocate gay conversion therapy? After all, by your standards people aren't born gay therefore it can be counselled away. Whereas many transsexuals know from their earliest memories when they came to recognise that male and female exists, that they identified with the gender that they weren't assigned to at birth.

I wouldn't advocate conversion therapy for anyone. I WOULD advocate some recognition that trans people are in a pyschologically sensitive group, and that moderating demeaning language toward people who've identified as trans would be a good idea. But the same goes for gay XY men.

As for my comments about PC-- I don't agree that all trans people are as you've described: just realizing in due course that due to circumstance, they've ended up with a body that doesn't match their view of themselves, or the gender they were labeled with at birth. There are plenty of cases where sexual abuse and other factors contribute to an identity crisis, and there are plenty of cases where the psychological stresses aren't only due to external prejudices. I think pretending this to be so is dangerous. Different people are different, right?

At the risk of presuming too much, why did Yonadav transition to female and then back again? Might it be that there's more to his sense of gender than just aligning external appearances with internal feelings about his identity?

Whatever you think about my motivations or my sincerity, can we not agree that calling people pieces of shit, or calling trans people "creature," are things we can live without? 

I'll happily agree to that.

Okay, then.

[Angrboda]

Wait.  Benny threw a television set?  Okay.  Now you've got my attention.  

[Aliza]

I finished reading through the thread, and wow! Just wow! I wanted to make a comment about the emotional fragility of others on the internet.

1) Be able to take back what you dish out.

2) I’m not a trained psychologist and it’s not my job to navigate the complexities of the human condition. Unless it’s stated in unambiguous terms that someone is indeed suicidal, then I assume they’re not.  

3) I can’t help it if someone else’s head isn’t tethered to reality. I can’t teach them how to interact appropriately with others, and I can’t help them learn to accept themselves. I can try, but if my efforts fail, then it becomes clear that it was a job for a professional.