Game of Thrones final season [spoilers]

[Amarok]

I'm saying that for the scale and scope of the threat, for the entire battle to be over in a matter of hours was... unexpected.  Basically, the first major battle that the NK fights south of the wall and he's dead.  Seemed too easy for such an existential threat.

Why should it have been the first rather then the last ? And again easy by comparison to what ? Do you have some profound math that calculates how hard he should have been to beat ?

I'm not saying that the Dothraki would have been effective at Hardhome, I'm saying that Jon saw the kind of relentless onslaught of attack the army of the dead have and he still thought sending the Dothraki across a field in the dark without dragonglass weapons - because 100% they were not expecting Melisandre to show up and light their blades on fire - was monumentally bad planning.  The way it would have gone down without even the hope of Melisandre's fire blades would have been Jon doing exactly the stupid thing he was warning against: sending an ill-equipped army into battle against an enemy that would immediately kill that army and suck its victims into its own regiments was stupid.

Nor did I say you said it . I said they used the Dothraki in a way they inherently fight in really the only role they would be useful . And you realize their wasn't anywhere near enough dragon glass for everyone.

You can still have symbolic darkness and an episode where you can see what's happening

Wouldn't have been as scary

Predictability in story-telling is usually bad

Then you must hate an awful lot of stories

Because he's 8-fucking-thousand years old and magic.

So? Why should being old and magical make you hard to kill . The old three eyed Raven was both he died easily . The Children of the forest were both and they were nearly wiped out by barbarians with bronze weapons . Stannis effortlessly strangled Melisandre (thou didn't kill her) . This show has made it clear being old and magical doesn't mean much .

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No shit?!! But keeping your troops alive is equally, if not more important.

That's an ill defined term . How many troops ? How many is an acceptable sacrifice and to what ends ? And going back to your chess analogy they received a check mate and wiped the board  clean .

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Charging into the darkness?? no.

Charging period yes

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Uhm... I don't know what "dragon fire arrow idea" you're talking about. I said no such thing.

Sorry I was confusing you comment for someone else's 

The defenders prepared the trench, so they could have set up whatever system for setting it off they wanted. I understand a single arrow fired directly into it wouldn't work, because if it was that easy to light it, it could have happened too early, by accident. But something like a pile of easily flammable material at the far end of the trench, that someone would shoot a flaming arrow, or throw a torch into - that could have worked.

You do remember that white walkers can snuff out fire and there is nothing stopping him from using his dragon to simply stomp the flames out .

They are? LOL. Well, then someone should have told Theon and the Ironborn guarding Bran, because they were using bows - quite successfully - against wights, until they ran out of arrows

1. Because they using dragon glass which not everyone had access to 

2. They weren't up against a horde 

3. If the used arrows the night king would just use his dragon an torch them so it would have done shit .

[Homeless Nutter]

However, a much smarter option, from the tactical point of view - in my humble opinion - though much more costly to shoot, would have been to keep the Dothraki in the wings, wait for the undead horde to attack first, and then attack their flanks, while the enemy is stopped by burning pits and spikes, all the while pelting them with burning projectiles and dragon fire.

Like a Ramsay Bolton, Battle of the Bastards move.  Only problem is that since they're fighting at night and can see fuck-all they don't know when to attack flanks in order to encircle the dead.

Encircling the Nightking's army wouldn't be the idea. There would probably be too many of the undead and not enough Dothraki. And without long weapons and a wall of shields they couldn't enclose, or push the ice-zombies, anyway. But the main strength of light cavalry is mobility - quick attacks and retreats, which would have been easier from the sides of the attacking army approaching the castle. And while visibility was an issue, it seems to me, that once the undead reached the defense lines and were stopped by the fire-trench - that could have been a good time to charge their flanks. Better than a head on charge at the enemy you can't see at all, I think.

Well, have we considered the possibility, that Jon and Daenerys... are simply idiots?

Definitely possible but IMO less likely.  Jon had made statements like that you can't fight the NK's army in a straight battle and had seen how they fight at Hardhome so he knew a lot more of what to expect than others like Greyworm who would line up the unsullied and fight that straight battle... but ultimately Jon does exactly what he says not to do.  I would have bought a battle that had a clever defense strategy that just falls apart but the way it was portrayed it wasn't even a clever strategy.

That's kind of my point - the main characters of Game Of Thrones are just not that clever. And they've proven it over and over - especially since the book material ran out. I think it helps to look at that world as a kind of "Idiocracy", where people's intelligence is severely impaired, due to millennia-long over-reliance on dragons, magic and gods...

The plan was that Davos would signal Dany and she would swoop in and her dragon would light the trenches but all the storm clouds and smoke blocked her view of the signal.  Davos commented on this in episode.

Sure, but I thought Dany was supposed to be focused on the Nightking and only ditched that plan and joined the battle, after she saw the Dothraki wiped out in seconds. She might not have been able to see Davos, or reach the trench in time anyway, if she was fighting the undead dragon. They  could have prepared a simpler, more fool-proof way to do it, in my opinion.

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You do remember that white walkers can snuff out fire

That's beside the point. They needed to set the trench on fire and it looked like they would have completely failed, if the Red Woman hadn't shown up, out of the blue. Bad planning.

and there is nothing stopping him from using his dragon to simply stomp the flames out .

Jon, Daenerys and their dragons were supposed to stop him. They were waiting for the Nightking to show up, that's why they were not on the battlefield at the start of the battle.

I don't really know how the trench was meant to work - it looked like it was very flammable, but maybe that was just Melissandre's magic. But if the trench was not filled with some kind of highly flammable material - then why did Davos shout at his men to light the trench, after he couldn't signal Daenerys and why did they run towards it with torches, only to be killed, if it was just a bunch of wood that was meant to be lit with magical dragon fire?  

They are? LOL. Well, then someone should have told Theon and the Ironborn guarding Bran, because they were using bows - quite successfully - against wights, until they ran out of arrows

1. Because they using dragon glass which not everyone had access to 

Really? Then why were they lighting their arrows on fire? Seems like a waste of time, since dragon-glass arrow should kill the undead without it. And what do you mean - not everyone had access to dragon-glass? Didn't they go to Dragonstone specifically for that?

Also - since the Dothraki didn't have dragon-glass swords - what were they supposed to accomplish, if Melissandre didn't happen to show up unannounced, literally minutes before the charge, with her - not very useful - fire-sword magic?

2. They weren't up against a horde  

What does that matter? Either arrows work against the dead, or not. And clearly fire arrows seem to do the job. So why not shoot at them, while they're standing behind the burning trench?

3. If the used arrows the night king would just use his dragon an torch them so it would have done shit .

Again - the Nightking and his dragon were supposed to be busy fighting against Daenerys and Jon on dragons.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

As I've said, I don't follow the show, but this seems appropriate here:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article...tient.html

Boru

[Clueless Morgan]

Ok, the good parts...
It was too dark for me to realize at the time (and I was a bit distracted with my phone), but I've since seen the 40 minute behind the scenes that they put on youtube and... the crypt and how the dead in the tombs came alive! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA That's hilarious! Put the women and children safely in the crypt against a magical dude who can make every dead person return to life!

My sister totally predicted that.  Now, having seen it, I was a touch disappointed that we didn't see Sansa having to kill Dead-Ned after he crawled out of his own tomb.  I also expected a payoff for Sansa and the scene where Arya gave her the dagger.

Dragon fight!
Jon and Dany definitely could have used some radios and a few flying lessons from How to Train Your Dragon

OMG! All that dragon sky-fighting totally reminded me of How to Train your Dragon!

I don't follow the show, but I just read that the last episode is the most tweeted about in the history of television - closing in on eight million tweets.

By comparison, the final episode of M*A*S*H got zero tweets. 

Boru

A damn travesty.

I'm saying that for the scale and scope of the threat, for the entire battle to be over in a matter of hours was... unexpected.  Basically, the first major battle that the NK fights south of the wall and he's dead.  Seemed too easy for such an existential threat.

Why should it have been the first rather then the last ? And again easy by comparison to what ? Do you have some profound math that calculates how hard he should have been to beat ?

FFS, of course there's not math to calculate this stuff.

I wonder, though, if the last four episode would have more emotional impact and release if they were binged rather than released with a week in between to decompress.  In that case, then, we would have gotten the wall coming down, the troops gathering at Winterfell, the night before the battle of winterfell and then the long night back to back to back to back.

Maybe I'll try watching it like that this weekend.

Do I have time this weekend to spend four hours on my ass watching GOT?  Fuck it, I'll make it happen.

I'm not saying that the Dothraki would have been effective at Hardhome, I'm saying that Jon saw the kind of relentless onslaught of attack the army of the dead have and he still thought sending the Dothraki across a field in the dark without dragonglass weapons - because 100% they were not expecting Melisandre to show up and light their blades on fire - was monumentally bad planning.  The way it would have gone down without even the hope of Melisandre's fire blades would have been Jon doing exactly the stupid thing he was warning against: sending an ill-equipped army into battle against an enemy that would immediately kill that army and suck its victims into its own regiments was stupid.

Nor did I say you said it . I said they used the Dothraki in a way they inherently fight in really the only role they would be useful .

Homeless Nutter described a far better use of the Dothraki than charging them across a field to their immediate deaths.

And you realize their wasn't anywhere near enough dragon glass for everyone.

Exactly why the Dothraki should have been given dragon glass weapons: they're experienced fighters and were being used as the first wave of attack.  If they were going to send the Dothraki across a field to plow into the army of the dead they should have been given dragon glass weapons and their horses should have been outfitted with, like, spiked armor plate on their chests so whey they went plowing into the dead front lines the horses themselves would have been taking down enemies.  They should have been outfitted in the gnarliest dragon glass kit the living could muster, not only to make the first wave of attack the most effective it could be, but also give some of the most experienced fighters the best chance of living and fighting on.

The Dothraki should have the best of the dragon glass weapons, the Unsullied should have the best of the dragon glass weapons, the military "officers" and most experienced, battle-tried of the infantry should have had dragon glass weapons, and, it's shitty to say, but the everyday folk, the farmers, shopkeepers, and people with little to no experience in a battle should have gotten the hand weapons, the off-cuts, the shards, the chips...

With limited resources like with the dragon glass you want that shit in the hands of the people who can put it to the best use.

You can still have symbolic darkness and an episode where you can see what's happening

Wouldn't have been as scary

There are plenty of suspense, thriller, horror, and war movies that are dark but you can still see what's going on in them.

Predictability in story-telling is usually bad

Then you must hate an awful lot of stories

Yes, there's a lot of shit out there.

Like a Ramsay Bolton, Battle of the Bastards move.  Only problem is that since they're fighting at night and can see fuck-all they don't know when to attack flanks in order to encircle the dead.

Encircling the Nightking's army wouldn't be the idea. There would probably be too many of the undead and not enough Dothraki. And without long weapons and a wall of shields they couldn't enclose, or push the ice-zombies, anyway. But the main strength of light cavalry is mobility - quick attacks and retreats, which would have been easier from the sides of the attacking army approaching the castle. And while visibility was an issue, it seems to me, that once the undead reached the defense lines and were stopped by the fire-trench - that could have been a good time to charge their flanks. Better than a head on charge at the enemy you can't see at all, I think.

Ah, okay, I understand what you're saying now.  But I think we're in agreement that the initial Dothraki charge was a stupid waste.

The plan was that Davos would signal Dany and she would swoop in and her dragon would light the trenches but all the storm clouds and smoke blocked her view of the signal.  Davos commented on this in episode.

Sure, but I thought Dany was supposed to be focused on the Nightking and only ditched that plan and joined the battle, after she saw the Dothraki wiped out in seconds. She might not have been able to see Davos, or reach the trench in time anyway, if she was fighting the undead dragon. They  could have prepared a simpler, more fool-proof way to do it, in my opinion.

Ooo, good point.

[Amarok]

That's beside the point. They needed to set the trench on fire and it looked like they would have completely failed, if the Red Woman hadn't shown up, out of the blue. Bad planning.

Actually it's not .It's actually the point

Jon, Daenerys and their dragons were supposed to stop him. They were waiting for the Nightking to show up, that's why they were not on the battlefield at the start of the battle.

 Supposed doesn't mean succeeded  

Really? Then why were they lighting their arrows on fire? Seems like a waste of time, since dragon-glass arrow should kill the undead without it. And what do you mean - not everyone had access to dragon-glass? Didn't they go to Dragonstone specifically for that?

Yup they used some fire arrows but that goes to my later point .Consider it's not an easy material to forge with and they limited supply not everyone got a dragon glass weapon . In fact in believe they mention this is episode 2.

Also - since the Dothraki didn't have dragon-glass swords - what were they supposed to accomplish, if Melissandre didn't happen to show up unannounced, literally minutes before the charge, with her - not very useful - fire-sword magic?

Even if you can't kill a wight you can still dismember one and then can still be trampled under horse .

What does that matter? Either arrows work against the dead, or not. And clearly fire arrows seem to do the job. So why not shoot at them, while they're standing behind the burning trench?

It matters because theirs a difference between sniping with a bow and valley tactics which are far less effective against such a large hoarde .

Again - the Nightking and his dragon were supposed to be busy fighting against Daenerys and Jon on dragons

 Supposed doesn't mean succeeded

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Homeless Nutter described a far better use of the Dothraki than charging them across a field to their immediate deaths.

I read I don't it would work or the Dothraki could or would do it 

Exactly why the Dothraki should have been given dragon glass weapons: they're experienced fighters and were being used as the first wave of attack.  If they were going to send the Dothraki across a field to plow into the army of the dead they should have been given dragon glass weapons and their horses should have been outfitted with, like, spiked armor plate on their chests so whey they went plowing into the dead front lines the horses themselves would have been taking down enemies.  They should have been outfitted in the gnarliest dragon glass kit the living could muster, not only to make the first wave of attack the most effective it could be, but also give some of the most experienced fighters the best chance of living and fighting on.


The Dothraki should have the best of the dragon glass weapons, the Unsullied should have the best of the dragon glass weapons, the military "officers" and most experienced, battle-tried of the infantry should have had dragon glass weapons, and, it's shitty to say, but the everyday folk, the farmers, shopkeepers, and people with little to no experience in a battle should have gotten the hand weapons, the off-cuts, the shards, the chips...

With limited resources like with the dragon glass you want that shit in the hands of the people who can put it to the best use.

Should a could are two different things and you assume the Dothraki needed them

There are plenty of suspense, thriller, horror, and war movies that are dark but you can still see what's going on in the

Not that level of surreal and creepy 

Yes, there's a lot of shit out there.

And tons of timeless classics

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Homeless Nutter described a far better use of the Dothraki than charging them across a field to their immediate deaths.

I read I don't it would work or the Dothraki could or would do it 

Exactly why the Dothraki should have been given dragon glass weapons: they're experienced fighters and were being used as the first wave of attack.  If they were going to send the Dothraki across a field to plow into the army of the dead they should have been given dragon glass weapons and their horses should have been outfitted with, like, spiked armor plate on their chests so whey they went plowing into the dead front lines the horses themselves would have been taking down enemies.  They should have been outfitted in the gnarliest dragon glass kit the living could muster, not only to make the first wave of attack the most effective it could be, but also give some of the most experienced fighters the best chance of living and fighting on.


The Dothraki should have the best of the dragon glass weapons, the Unsullied should have the best of the dragon glass weapons, the military "officers" and most experienced, battle-tried of the infantry should have had dragon glass weapons, and, it's shitty to say, but the everyday folk, the farmers, shopkeepers, and people with little to no experience in a battle should have gotten the hand weapons, the off-cuts, the shards, the chips...

With limited resources like with the dragon glass you want that shit in the hands of the people who can put it to the best use.

Should a could are two different things and you assume the Dothraki needed them

There are plenty of suspense, thriller, horror, and war movies that are dark but you can still see what's going on in the

Not that level of surreal and creepy 

Yes, there's a lot of shit out there.

And tons of timeless classics

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Homeless Nutter described a far better use of the Dothraki than charging them across a field to their immediate deaths.

Not the way they fight. They don't flank , They use hit and run , They charge in suicidal attacks until they or whatever their fighting is dead . They don't wear armor because they don't care if they die , And centuries it worked . They probably believed it could still work as it did a number on the Lannisters . But this time it didn't work .

Exactly why the Dothraki should have been given dragon glass weapons: they're experienced fighters and were being used as the first wave of attack.  If they were going to send the Dothraki across a field to plow into the army of the dead they should have been given dragon glass weapons and their horses should have been outfitted with, like, spiked armor plate on their chests so whey they went plowing into the dead front lines the horses themselves would have been taking down enemies.  They should have been outfitted in the gnarliest dragon glass kit the living could muster, not only to make the first wave of attack the most effective it could be, but also give some of the most experienced fighters the best chance of living and fighting on.


The Dothraki should have the best of the dragon glass weapons, the Unsullied should have the best of the dragon glass weapons, the military "officers" and most experienced, battle-tried of the infantry should have had dragon glass weapons, and, it's shitty to say, but the everyday folk, the farmers, shopkeepers, and people with little to no experience in a battle should have gotten the hand weapons, the off-cuts, the shards, the chips...

With limited resources like with the dragon glass you want that shit in the hands of the people who can put it to the best use.

Should a could are two different things and you assume the Dothraki needed them

There are plenty of suspense, thriller, horror, and war movies that are dark but you can still see what's going on in the

Not that level of surreal and creepy 

Yes, there's a lot of shit out there.

And tons of timeless classics

[Homeless Nutter]

That's beside the point. They needed to set the trench on fire and it looked like they would have completely failed, if the Red Woman hadn't shown up, out of the blue. Bad planning.

Actually it's not .It's actually the point

How so? Care to elaborate?

Jon, Daenerys and their dragons were supposed to stop him. They were waiting for the Nightking to show up, that's why they were not on the battlefield at the start of the battle.

 
Supposed doesn't mean succeeded  

What does that mean? They planned to fail? Are you following what we're talking about, or just giving knee-jerk one-line responses to every post in isolation?

Really? Then why were they lighting their arrows on fire? Seems like a waste of time, since dragon-glass arrow should kill the undead without it. And what do you mean - not everyone had access to dragon-glass? Didn't they go to Dragonstone specifically for that?

Yup they used some fire arrows but that goes to my later point. Consider it's not an easy material to forge with and they limited supply not everyone got a dragon glass weapon . In fact in believe they mention this is episode 2.

Fire is not an easy material to forge? Make up your mind - can you use fire arrows against the wights, or not? If you can - then you don't need obsidian.

Also - since the Dothraki didn't have dragon-glass swords - what were they supposed to accomplish, if Melissandre didn't happen to show up unannounced, literally minutes before the charge, with her - not very useful - fire-sword magic?

Even if you can't kill a wight you can still dismember one and then can still be trampled under horse .

Perhaps, but there are better ways to do it, than to charge head on at an enemy you've never fought in your life and can't see, especially if you have no armor and a short sword as the only weapon. And horses are not immortal. Even if you manage to damage some zombie, but then you immediately die and come back as a zombie - you're not really helping. If the Dothraki waited for the dead to come closer and fight them at the same time as the infantry, chances are they would have lasted longer than half a minute.

What does that matter? Either arrows work against the dead, or not. And clearly fire arrows seem to do the job. So why not shoot at them, while they're standing behind the burning trench?

It matters because theirs a difference between sniping with a bow and valley tactics which are far less effective against such a large hoarde .

When the large horde was standing outside the castle, behind the burning trench, within a the range of arrows, the defenders were not using "valley tactics", were they (did you mean "melee"?)? They were doing nothing, waiting for the enemy to break through. Castle walls and ranged weapons were invented specifically for holding off "large hordes", without being directly in harm's way. Using melee, when you have a castle and the enemy can raise the dead is pretty dumb.

[Silver]

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Not the way they fight. They don't flank , They use hit and run , They charge in suicidal attacks until they or whatever their fighting is dead . They don't wear armor because they don't care if they die

How very Celtic of them.

Boru

[tackattack]

Calvary weren't typically released until the enemy breaks formation. Even then it was usually heavy Calvary. Seeing as this wasn't a siege, thee enemy had no siege weapons and and the undead don't break ranks, they were fairly pointless and I would have sent them elsewhere. Seeing as she knows she's going into the mud gate by sea in king's landing, I don't think Danny cared that much either. At best they were a scare tactic and number in the types of battles Danny needed to have on this side of the water.

[LastPoet]

Calvary weren't typically released until the enemy breaks formation. Even then it was usually heavy Calvary. Seeing as this wasn't a siege, thee enemy had no siege weapons and and the undead don't break ranks, they were fairly pointless and I would have sent them elsewhere. Seeing as she knows she's going into the mud gate by sea in king's landing, I don't think Danny cared that much either. At best they were a scare tactic and number in the types of battles Danny needed to have on this side of the water.

Tactically the infantry would engage other infantry then cavalry outflank the enemy infantry in order to break their formations. As Napoleon said cavalry charges should be made at the beggining, middle and end of a battle, specially on the flanks or rear of infantry otherwise engaged.

Dunno if that would work here, since the undead were not really fighting in formation and they should be quite immune to the shock value of cavalry. Still, would give them more time and a fighting chance alongside foot soldiers.

But then there is undead and dragons, what do I know?