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RE: A timeless being cannot create
July 18, 2019 at 10:53 am
(July 18, 2019 at 1:09 am)Belaqua Wrote: (July 17, 2019 at 8:33 pm)mcc1789 Wrote: Me too, and no they usually don't.
Well, insults are rife on the Internet, but it is Atheist Forums after all.
I'll check that out, thanks.
I remembered another site that might be useful, if you're feeling ambitious.
http://classicaltheismforum.com
This is for people who know what they're talking about. They won't put up with any nonsense at the Ken Ham/Christopher Hitchens level.
Christopher Hitchens is “nonsense”? I’m not sure we can be friends. 😛
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
Wiser words were never spoken.
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RE: A timeless being cannot create
July 18, 2019 at 2:46 pm
(July 17, 2019 at 8:49 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote:
You are always yourself, but that self is never in a constant state as we consistently interact with time. I see myself as the same self who was me when I was 6, as I see the self that I want to be when I'm 60, which is the same self as I am now. Characteristics, experiences and beliefs of that self may change over points in time, but the self is still uniquely me.
As for God, If you existed in all places at once, existence wasn't dependent on time, and know everything about everything from all of those times, you would have no need to evolve. You would also have no survival concerns to apply selective pressure. You would only have any pressure to change based on your interactions within time (or people subject to time) or by your will alone.
God might see himself as 3 Gods, 20 Gods, the foundation of everything in existence or a globular mass of sheer will. IDK. The Bible seems to represent my known experience with God and I use it to help define what I consider God and in it He states that whatever else there is there is none like Him, and he alone is the Alpha and Omega.
(July 17, 2019 at 9:05 pm)mcc1789 Wrote:
I find it unlikely that you had a face to face interaction with a Christian that used those words, but sure let's call it standard. A being who is eternal can be eternally changing or eternally stationary, or eternally grumpy and be eternal. The characteristic of eternal, simply means existing before and after time. Therefore, you WHEN you are does not necessitate WHAT you are. I could be an eternal asshole if I was able to 
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
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RE: A timeless being cannot create
July 18, 2019 at 2:55 pm
(This post was last modified: July 18, 2019 at 2:55 pm by Peebothuhlu.)
At work.
Hello tackattack! 
See..... it's posts/comments like that which make said diety proposition completely incoherant to me.
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RE: A timeless being cannot create
July 18, 2019 at 2:57 pm
(This post was last modified: July 18, 2019 at 3:02 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
- and yet your god has demonstrably changed over time, Tack.
Just like any person, and people as a whole.
..,but what anim was asking was even more fundamental, why does it “see itself” at all, or as anything at all, let alone some specific thing? We have a good understanding for why we do...but it’s explicitly based on those things you say don’t apply to your god.
Not that this means much, between the observation above and the things you say about that god, it’s clear that you don’t and can’t divorce your description of your god from those things you find problematic. You simply believe that it’s divorced from them even as you affirm that it isn’t.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: A timeless being cannot create
July 18, 2019 at 4:35 pm
One of the things that struck me when I read the Bible was the changing character of God. I had been taught that God is changeless, but he's not even portrayed as consistent.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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RE: A timeless being cannot create
July 18, 2019 at 4:36 pm
(July 18, 2019 at 4:35 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: One of the things that struck me when I read the Bible was the changing character of God. I had been taught that God is changeless, but he's not even portrayed as consistent.
“Awwww, FUCK!”
*flood*
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
Wiser words were never spoken.
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RE: A timeless being cannot create
July 18, 2019 at 4:42 pm
(This post was last modified: July 18, 2019 at 4:46 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
The inconsistency of the mythology was one of its first challenges, leading to one pogrom after another within the protochristian community, which was a massive part of why the Roman’s saw them as little more than a bunch of ignorant street gangs. Ultimately, it was the assumption of pagan theology combined with institutional necessity that lead them to propose an unchanging god.
/ a bit of dogma that they’ve struggled to assert with any credibility ever since, particularly in light of how they never stopped changing their god, themselves.
Lol @ Camus.
Makes man. Oops!
Allows man to live. Oops!
Sends the law. Oops!
Sends his son......,
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: A timeless being cannot create
July 18, 2019 at 7:29 pm
(July 18, 2019 at 2:46 pm)tackattack Wrote: (July 17, 2019 at 8:49 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote:
You are always yourself, but that self is never in a constant state as we consistently interact with time. I see myself as the same self who was me when I was 6, as I see the self that I want to be when I'm 60, which is the same self as I am now. Characteristics, experiences and beliefs of that self may change over points in time, but the self is still uniquely me.
As for God, If you existed in all places at once, existence wasn't dependent on time, and know everything about everything from all of those times, you would have no need to evolve. You would also have no survival concerns to apply selective pressure. You would only have any pressure to change based on your interactions within time (or people subject to time) or by your will alone.
God might see himself as 3 Gods, 20 Gods, the foundation of everything in existence or a globular mass of sheer will. IDK. The Bible seems to represent my known experience with God and I use it to help define what I consider God and in it He states that whatever else there is there is none like Him, and he alone is the Alpha and Omega.
(July 17, 2019 at 9:05 pm)mcc1789 Wrote:
I find it unlikely that you had a face to face interaction with a Christian that used those words, but sure let's call it standard. A being who is eternal can be eternally changing or eternally stationary, or eternally grumpy and be eternal. The characteristic of eternal, simply means existing before and after time. Therefore, you WHEN you are does not necessitate WHAT you are. I could be an eternal asshole if I was able to
I haven't had many in person interactions with Christians on theology, so no probably not. So what? I haven't claimed to, and I'm unsure why that's relevant. However, it has been advocated by Christians from Boethius to C. S. Lewis, among others. In fact it's been a major pillar of how they strive to reconcile free will with God's foreknowledge (I don't think it works, but no matter). This seems like a slightly unusual definition of eternal (I'd call it "existing forever") but fine. I don't really want to get into another issue though (i.e. personal and eternal).
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RE: A timeless being cannot create
July 18, 2019 at 11:14 pm
(July 18, 2019 at 4:35 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: One of the things that struck me when I read the Bible was the changing character of God. I had been taught that God is changeless, but he's not even portrayed as consistent.
That was one thing I noticed. It is true what many atheists argue--actually reading the Bible is a good way to see how the Christian faith is bunk. What particularly struck me was the contrived attempts for Jesus to perform acts for the specific purpose to "fulfill prophesy".
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RE: A timeless being cannot create
July 18, 2019 at 11:56 pm
(July 17, 2019 at 12:55 am)mcc1789 Wrote: I think there's a logical argument to be made against God's existence here on the basis of incompatible properties. God is outside time, we're told. He's not only eternal (existing forever) but also unaffected by temporal changes. He is after all the creator too, and that includes time. Yet when something is created, it comes into being. That entails a previous instance where it didn't exist of course. Yet if time itself was created, that makes no sense. To speak of a time "before" time is meaningless. Moreover, how does a timeless being create while outside time (and space as well)? A creation involves a change in space and time. It's enough to see how this could be done by a lesser being. How though could it be with a timeless being? I suggest it's inc oherent, and the very fact that things do exist shows that such a being (i.e. God) doesn't. What do you think?
" Time" is a slippery concept. I can't post a link yet but, a while back, I read a good article at the Stanford e of p. One view held by contemporaries is that is no such thing as time: It's just a measure of change. If nothing changes or moves then there's no time.
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