Allah messed up with calculations.. again..

[annatar]

By now you all know that allah made some silly mistake in heritage division. But this one is about how many muslim can win the war against infidels..

O Prophet, urge the believers to battle. If there are among you twenty [who are] steadfast, they will overcome two hundred. And if there are among you one hundred [who are] steadfast, they will overcome a thousand of those who have disbelieved because they are a people who do not understand. (8:65)

So ratio is 1 to 10 now! wow, praise be The allah! .. But, I think muho realized that they are going to be massacred if they go to battle in such numbers...

Now, Allah has lightened [the hardship] for you, and He knows that among you is weakness. So if there are from you one hundred [who are] steadfast, they will overcome two hundred. And if there are among you a thousand, they will overcome two thousand by permission of Allah . And Allah is with the steadfast.

Here, is a more rational rate. 1 to 2 ... Why allah, why? Couldn't you made them strong enough to defeat 1 to 10? And by the way, didn't you knew that they were weak before you send that verses?

[Rayaan]

You do have the ratios correct but you're missing a point here.

The thing is that the verses are not saying that the Muslims "can" or "will" defeat such-and-such number of enemies. Rather, this is a rule or a law that Allah gave to Muhammad (pbuh) so that he follows this method whenever decides to set up an army against an opposing side. It's not a prediction, but only a commandment, which is telling the Prophet how to determine the number of Muslims he should prepare in relation to the number of non-Muslims. I'll break it down and see if it becomes a little clearer to you.

Verse 8:65 says:

- Twenty Muslims shall overtake two hundred of the opposition.
- A hundred Muslims shall overtake a thousand of the opposition.

This means that for every Muslim there has to be 10 non-Muslims (a ratio of 1 to 10).

Verse 8:66 says:

- A hundred Muslims shall overtake two hundred of the opposition.
- A thousand Muslims shall overtake two thousand of the opposition.

This means that for every Muslim there has to be 2 non-Muslims (a ratio of 1 to 2).

As you already know, the ratio in verse 65 is much lower than the ratio in verse 66. Why? Because Allah said that he lowered their burden:

"Now hath Allah lightened your burden, for He knows that there is weakness in you." (8:66).

So, it clearly shows that Allah lightened the burden upon the Muslims due to their weakness. Thus, instead of one hundred Muslims having to take on a thousand (verse 65) they can now take on two hundred only (verse 66). It is a change of decree from Allah to show his mercy toward the Muslims.


Here's an analogy to make it even simpler:

Let's say that a science teacher assigned 2 projects throughout the whole semester. For each project, there has to be 4 students working on it. But later, the teacher wanted to make the workload a little bit easier for them, and that's why, he said that now there has to 5 people working on it instead of 4.

So before, the ratio of the number of projects to the number of students was 2 to 4 (or 4 students per project), and later the ratio became 2 to 5 (or 5 students per project). This means that the amount of work for each of the students is less of a burden than before. Each student has less work to do for a project in the same way that Allah reduced the number of enemies for the Muslims during a battle (as I already explained above). In both cases, the burden was reduced by simply changing the value of the ratios.

[muhtesem insan]

problem with your analogy is; science teacher is not all-knowing, all-powerful.

[annatar]

The thing is that the verses are not saying that the Muslims "can" or "will" defeat such-and-such number of enemies.

No, it says "shall overtake.." You know what that means right? As far as I know "shall" is an old form of "will" and it states a certainity if its used as "will" correct me if I'm wrong..
Anyway I have the turkish translation of the verse and it clearly states that Muslims will/can defeat infidels in such numbers if they are patient and whatever...

As you already know, the ratio in verse 65 is much lower than the ratio in verse 66. Why? Because Allah said that he lowered their burden:

And you bought it? lol.. Obviously, Muhammad realized that they were never going to win that war with such numbers, or maybe some of his supporters objected to him..(its more likely actually coz old muho is stubborn like a goat..) Anyway, my points stand. Didn't god knew that that kind of ratio would be heavy for them? As for your analogy, teacher doesnt have the power to make its children smarter. And can't see their potential before semester.. So he/she can change his/her mind according to their performance. But it's Allah we are talking about, not some fifth grade teacher.. He suppose to be all knowing right?

[Rayaan]

problem with your analogy is; science teacher is not all-knowing, all-powerful.

My point is that the teacher is showing his mercy to the students by making the task easier for them. He doesn't have to be omniscient to do that, does he?

No, it says "shall overtake.." You know what that means right? As far as I know "shall" is an old form of "will" and it states a certainity if its used as "will" correct me if I'm wrong..
Anyway I have the turkish translation of the verse and it clearly states that Muslims will/can defeat infidels in such numbers if they are patient and whatever...

The word "shall" could also imply to be "should" in some cases, like the statements in the Ten Commandments ("Thou shall not kill," "Thou shall not steal," "Thou shall not commit adultery," etc). Secondly, you can't always rely on the English translation of the Quran word-for-word because the problem is that sometimes translators will use words which differ from each other. Therefore, you have to either refer to the Arabic one OR refer to the tafseer (interpretation) of the verses to understand them more clearly.

Here's an interpretation of the verses recorded in a hadith from Bukhari:

Narrated Ibn Abbas: When the verse: - "If there are twenty steadfast amongst you, they will overcome two hundred." (8.65) was revealed, it became obligatory for the Muslims that one (Muslim) should not flee from ten (non-Muslims). Sufyan (the sub-narrator) once said, "Twenty (Muslims) should not flee before two hundred (non Muslims)." Then there was revealed: "But now Allah has lightened your task .." (8:66). - Volume 6, Book 60, Number 175

This context of the two verses matches with another verse in the same chapter, which says, "O you who believe! When you meet those who disbelieve, in a battle-field, never turn your backs to them" (Surah 8:15). So, later the Quran specifies the minimum number to this rule by saying that 1 Muslim should not turn away 2 two non-Muslims because Allah has lightened the task for them (as implied in verse 66).

Anyway, my points stand. Didn't god knew that that kind of ratio would be heavy for them?

Allah does know that it would be too heavy for them. He purposely made it difficult at first, so that later, He could reduce the number as a way of displaying His mercy toward the Muslims. That is essentially why He "lightened their burden," which is, to manifest His mercy to them only after giving them a difficult challenge. This is similar to how Allah reduced the number of daily prayers from 50 prayers to 5 prayers when Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) asked Allah to reduce the number because he knows that performing 50 prayers a day would be too much of a difficult thing for his followers. Then, Allah showed His mercy by reducing it to 5 prayers only and thus He made the task lighter for the Muslims.

[muhtesem insan]

My point is that the teacher is showing his mercy to the students by making the task easier for them. He doesn't have to be omniscient to do that, does he?

But teacher may be mistaken so he can correct his mistake, do you say allah was mistaken at first?

Allah does know that it would be too heavy for them. He purposely made it difficult at first, so that later, He could reduce the number as a way of displaying His mercy toward the Muslims. That is essentially why He "lightened their burden," which is, to manifest His mercy to them only after giving them a difficult challenge. This is similar to how Allah reduced the number of daily prayers from 50 prayers to 5 prayers when Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) asked Allah to reduce the number because he knows that performing 50 prayers a day would be too much of a difficult thing for his followers. Then, Allah showed His mercy by reducing it to 5 prayers only and thus He made the task lighter for the Muslims.

So allah showed mercy by lightening a burden he caused in the first place.

[annatar]

The word "shall" could also imply to be "should" in some cases, like the statements in the Ten Commandments ("Thou shall not kill," "Thou shall not steal," "Thou shall not commit adultery," etc).

Dude "shall" does not imply "should" in ten commandments. its called ten commandments for a reason.
Anyway in turkish translation it says "You will" actually it says something that can be translated as "you are going to"
Let me translate to you word to word:
(its from arabic to english btw)
yâ eyyuha: oh
en nebiyyu: prophet
harridı el mu'minîne: encourage believers to war, boost their desire to war.
alel kıtâli (alâ el kıtâli): to war
in yekun: if there are
min-kum:from you
işrûne: twenty (people)
sâbirûne: who are patient
yaglibû: will win against
mieteyni: two hundred(people)
and so on.. (Okay I am bored and made my point. )

Allah does know that it would be too heavy for them. He purposely made it difficult at first, so that later, He could reduce the number as a way of displaying His mercy toward the Muslims.

So allah deceiving people to show his so called mercy?

[Rayaan]

Narrated Ibn Abbas: When the verse: - "If there are twenty steadfast amongst you, they will overcome two hundred." (8.65) was revealed, it became obligatory for the Muslims that one (Muslim) should not flee from ten (non-Muslims). Sufyan (the sub-narrator) once said, "Twenty (Muslims) should not flee before two hundred (non Muslims)." Then there was revealed: "But now Allah has lightened your task .." (8:66). - Volume 6, Book 60, Number 175

[muhtesem insan]

so allah made an error and corrected it.

[Rayaan]

Allah made a law and then He changed it. Making a change doesn't always mean that there was an error.