Deconversion and some doubts

[The Grand Nudger]

It’s neither, dingus. That’s why it’s open to theists or atheists.

[GrandizerII]

So Vulcan subscribes to that same view without appealing to any God. So nothing really to do with God. Great.

And no, Platonism is Platonism. If you want to call it theism, that's your prerogative. But people can reasonably disagree with the label here.

And if you want to call it a form of atheism that’s yours. I’m not that hung up on your personal labels, just the content contained in them.

But what exactly is theistic that you see about this view?

And what was the point of your original response then exactly?

Doesn't change the fact that social powers can have an impact on people and condition people to think in line with the current zeitgeist. The oughts we get continue to come from us, not from a silent ideal out there in a remote realm.

[Acrobat]

Because you believe that stealing is bad, and because you believe that you shouldn’t do bad things, you believe that you shouldn’t steal.

No, it’s because I believe stealing is bad, that i believe that I shouldn’t do it.

If I didn’t believe I shouldn’t do it, I wouldn’t believe it’s bad.

Nothing is bad unless i shouldn’t do it.

[The Grand Nudger]

You believe that you shouldn’t do bad things.

Why in the holy fuck are you arguing this basic point. Honestly? You’re just saying “no” then agreeing.

............?

[Acrobat]

It’s neither, dingus. That’s why it’s open to theists or atheists.

Okay good, then just consider me a Platonists who believes Christ is an embodiment of the Good.

And since you suggests this view doesn’t require me to be an atheist or theist, I’ll just remain undefined in regards to these categories.

[The Grand Nudger]

That’s cool, couldn’t care less, but unless you also believe...in addition to believing that you shouldn’t do bad things, that none of this is true or matters in the absence of a god or belief in a god- then your earlier outburst was just a bunch of shit slinging at a person you don’t know, for no reason.

That person likely believes that there are bad things, that they shouldn’t do bad things, and therefore that they should not do those bad things...,..just like you.

And just like you, regardless of whether there’s any god.

[Acrobat]

Doesn't change the fact that social powers can have an impact on people and condition people to think in line with the current zeitgeist. The oughts we get continue to come from us, not from a silent ideal out there in a remote realm.

“Woe to those who call evil good and good evil”.

What social powers often do is call bad things good and good things bad. Since good and bad are objective truths, what they’re doing is selling a lie, a deception to what’s true, sort of like convincing people that 9/11 was an inside job, and not like convincing people to change their fashion style.

If you wanted to convince someone to do something thats objectively bad, just lie and convince them that’s it good, and not bad

[The Grand Nudger]

Sure, society can do that. Presumably, society can also get something right.

You’re here talking about Plato’s form of the good and Christ as an embodiment of the good.

Both were handed to you by society, but you don’t seem to think that’s a problem in either of those cases. You don’t seem to think you’ve been “sold a lie” in either regard.

Descriptive moral subjectivism is the acknowledgement that society is doing that/ which you just affirmed your own belief in.

[Acrobat]

But what exactly is theistic that you see about this view?

I consider any view of reality as teleological, possessing some sort of intrinsic goal, or aim, meaning, more like a narrative, a story, as opposed to some sort of nihilistic view, as theistic.

If the Good exists, I desire to serve, worship, submit to it, to share in it, be like it, etc.. I would see it as the way the truth, and the life.

I would see all that stands in opposition to the Good, as in a state of rebellion, broken, in need of redemption, to be whole again.

Now perhaps you disagree with this definition of theism, and believe I can hold such beliefs and not fall into either category. If so I’m okay with that, remaining undefined, because we don’t share the same understanding of terms like theism, or god.

[The Grand Nudger]

You desire. You desire. That desire forms the basis of your evaluative premises. That you believe you shouldn’t do bad things is an expression of that desire to conform to your notion of goodness by act ( or by avoidance of action, more specifically).

You can desire to be good, without any reference to a god. Just as you refer to the form of the good as your descriptive basis, also with no need of reference to a god.