Nine killed in Dayton, Ohio

[The Grand Nudger]

If I had to distill our gun problem down to its basic element, it’s that right wing nuts run on obstruction...and left wing nuts run on solutions with no leverage.

The solution is to pass regulation that does have leverage in a way that nutters can’t coherently argue against. Even more importantly, while we’re trying to accomplish that, we need to get serious about enforcement of existing regs.

[onlinebiker]

Nutters...


Isn' t it great when you're in the "right" poliical group - and you can villify and denegrate the " wrong"  group and label them as subhuman vermin?

(Right and wrong being soley up to the individual)


I guess that must be how the white supremisists feel.

[The Grand Nudger]

As if you had to guess.

[onlinebiker]

As if you had to guess.

,,!,/

[Brian37]

True. But there's a sizable percentage of gun owners with a lot of guns (last I checked, 3% of American adults own 50% of America's firearms), and about 40% have not had proper training with said firearms. No stats on those who have had proper training and aren't safe and responsible, though. 

Right, but... the VAST majority of gun-owners are not doing shit like this. This isn't to say that guns are not a factor, but claiming guns are the only part of the problem worth addressing is silly. We have a culture problem, not a gun problem. If you think that more guns simply being there will just cause more shootings to happen, you have very little faith in humanity. I think it's more an issue of how easily accessible guns are combined with several problems we have with our culture.

Do we need better gun regulations? Sure, but blaming everyone on the right and trying to tout them as racist gun-fanatics isn't doing anyone any favors. It's about time we, as a country, learned how to have mature discussions about this subject so we can actually start getting to the root of the problem.

100 people on average even outside mass shootings are dying by firearm per day! 36,000 on average per year. I don't care about the majority, ENOUGH people are, and even with those that do die every day, most firearm fatalities start with a legally purchased firearm. But it is also true that it does not help that the POTUS is pandering to bigots. Bad combo to have a climate of easy access to firearms, and sell hate as well. 

Our laws have to change, PERIOD! It isn't enough to say "Don't blame me, I don't do that." Nobody is talking about you, I am talking about our laws and one industry's CEOs whom are obstructing any meaningful change, regardless of motive.

[The Grand Nudger]

We have to enforce them, at the very least. It may not be true that our laws have to change to show significant decrease in gun crime and gun death.

Enforcing our laws, for however long it takes to do the work of changing them, where and if they need to be changed, is worth a shot. I think.

-and it’s not as if changing laws will help if we’re lax in their enforcement, anyway.

I think that a huge problem in this, is that with every new mass shooting, every new failed argument or proposal, every new instance of obstructionism....it becomes politically and pragmatically more unlikely (and more difficult or costly) to do either thing.

[Brian37]

If I had to distill our gun problem down to its basic element, it’s that right wing nuts run on obstruction...and left wing nuts run on solutions with no leverage.

The solution is to pass regulation that does have leverage in a way that nutters can’t coherently argue against.  Even more importantly, while we’re trying to accomplish that, we need to get serious about enforcement of existing regs.

True, but the top of the chain are the CEOs of the firearm companies. Just like big tobacco pumped money into politics to hide the damage their products cause.

It is the same tactic big oil used to drag it's feet on getting lead out of gas. The same shit oil companies are doing today in denial that burning fossil fuels is causing climate volatility.

Money equals power so if you have money, all you have to do when your product is causing health problems or public safety issues, is pay off politicians through lobbies. Then get them to change the laws so you don't have to do the right thing. Basically convince enough people to protect you.

[onlinebiker]

Right, but... the VAST majority of gun-owners are not doing shit like this. This isn't to say that guns are not a factor, but claiming guns are the only part of the problem worth addressing is silly. We have a culture problem, not a gun problem. If you think that more guns simply being there will just cause more shootings to happen, you have very little faith in humanity. I think it's more an issue of how easily accessible guns are combined with several problems we have with our culture.

Do we need better gun regulations? Sure, but blaming everyone on the right and trying to tout them as racist gun-fanatics isn't doing anyone any favors. It's about time we, as a country, learned how to have mature discussions about this subject so we can actually start getting to the root of the problem.

100 people on average even outside mass shootings are dying by firearm per day! 36,000 on average per year. I don't care about the majority, ENOUGH people are, and even with those that do die every day, most firearm fatalities start with a legally purchased firearm. But it is also true that it does not help that the POTUS is pandering to bigots. Bad combo to have a climate of easy access to firearms, and sell hate as well. 

Our laws have to change, PERIOD! It isn't enough to say "Don't blame me, I don't do that." Nobody is talking about you, I am talking about our laws and one industry's CEOs whom are obstructing any meaningful change, regardless of motive.

Half of those 36000 are suicides.

" well if they didn't have access to a gun they wouldn't kill themselves"

Bullshit.


People use a gun when they are fully committed to whacking themselves. It' s not a halfassed attempt.

Get rid of guns and the number of people stepping off high buildings will go up just as fast as the people go down...

[LastPoet]

We have to enforce them, at the very least.  It may not be true that our laws have to change to show significant decrease in gun crime and gun death.

Enforcing our laws, for however long it takes to do the work of changing them, where and if they need to be changed, is worth a shot.  I think.

-and it’s not as if changing laws will help if we’re lax in their enforcement, anyway.

I think that a huge problem in this, is that with every new mass shooting, every new failed argument or proposal, every new instance of obstructionism....it becomes politically and pragmatically more unlikely (and more difficult or costly) to do either thing.

When my grandpa died, I could've kept his 12 gauge (old double barreled one over the other, that he used to hunt wabbits). To do so I needed to pay for a psych junta to evaluate me, take a course and pass the exam, and repeat it every 5 years. I am not a hunter, only indulged it as to keep it as a relic. Nah, too much work, if it was barreled sideways, it could be sold to a collector as those have market value. I just delivered it to the cops for a few modest €€.

[The Grand Nudger]

Which is why a mental health solution would do the most work for gun deaths down to suicide. It would also have benefit for mass shooting.

There is no competent mental health solution, though, that doesn’t contain a “crazy can’t get a gun” provision.

Conveniently, this is already the law, we just don’t enforce it, or even provide the support required to enforce it.