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RE: How to easily defeat any argument for God
August 13, 2019 at 8:23 pm
(This post was last modified: August 13, 2019 at 8:24 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Lol, Christians. Christians were something that the romans might have noticed too.
Yet, come 112ad, two people who should have been very much aware of them if Christian fables are true had no clue what they were about, and when they went looking, found nothing resembling christianity.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: How to easily defeat any argument for God
August 13, 2019 at 8:34 pm
(This post was last modified: August 13, 2019 at 8:35 pm by Acrobat.)
(August 13, 2019 at 6:26 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: (August 13, 2019 at 6:15 pm)Acrobat Wrote: It’s all related to being, being a good person.
When you say or I say hurting people is wrong, it implies that we ought or should not hurt people. This as true for me as it for you.
It the difference between saying people were hurt, and hurting people is wrong.
*sigh*
Why is hurting people wrong? Why is not hurting people right? Chasing you in a circle is getting old, Acro.
Because that’s not what a good person would do, and I ought to be a good person.
I want daughter to be a good person, her actions and behaviors should be reflective of a good person.
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RE: How to easily defeat any argument for God
August 13, 2019 at 8:36 pm
(This post was last modified: August 13, 2019 at 8:41 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
It’s not what a god person would do, and he ought to be a god person.
Belonging, obedience.
Others may have moral reservations, he’s more concerned with his eternal reservation.
Moving along, why isn’t it something that a good person would do? Why should you be a good person? Why do you want your daughter to be a good person?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: How to easily defeat any argument for God
August 13, 2019 at 9:10 pm
I’ve been drinking and my patience is wearing awfully thin with this jabroni.
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
Wiser words were never spoken.
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RE: How to easily defeat any argument for God
August 13, 2019 at 9:12 pm
(August 13, 2019 at 5:17 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Lol, and why shouldn’t we hurt people, Acro? Who or what decides these “oughts” that aren’t, according to you, at all related to physical well-being? Is “The Good” concerned with well-being? Yes, or no?
I wonder if any of us can justify these things.
Why shouldn't we hurt people? Because it works against the wellbeing of them and our society.
Why is it bad to work against that wellbeing? Because we want wellbeing.
Why is it good to want wellbeing? Because we just want it.....
If these ethical principles ultimately come down to habit, or preferences, then they may just change. But if we assert that they are true things, then they are true things that can't be proved by science. Some people would call that immaterial and transcendental. Wittgenstein calls it supernatural. It doesn't matter so much about the terminology.
It seems you are arguing that "wellbeing is something we should value" is a true fact (not a preference) that can't be proved by science. So (I haven't read the whole thread carefully), it makes sense to ask you: why is the desirability of wellbeing a fact, and not just a preference? Who or what decides these “oughts”?
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RE: How to easily defeat any argument for God
August 13, 2019 at 9:27 pm
(This post was last modified: August 13, 2019 at 9:35 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
You don’t think that science can study whether or not hurting people is good for society? Or whether we desire something? Irrelevant really, just wondering why you picked these two things to focus your throw-away “science can’t x” comments on.
The desirability of well-being actually doesn’t have to be a fact for well being based moralities to be realist. A person may not desire wellbeing at all, but that won’t change what does and doesn’t promote wellbeing.
Sure, people can give you reasons. That rational self interest and blind construction would lead you to their moral propositions, for example. But...ultimately, your desires ( or lack thereof) are your own and no issue whatsoever for realism.
Realism states only that some fact of a matter is the point of reference for moral propositions. Not that you have to give a shit.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: How to easily defeat any argument for God
August 13, 2019 at 9:28 pm
(This post was last modified: August 13, 2019 at 9:29 pm by EgoDeath.)
I'm not sure what the original argument was as the link in the original post was removed. But, luckily, a "how-to guide" is not necessary for defeating arguments for god's existence because, the fact is, there is no argument, empirical or otherwise, for god's existence that actually makes a convincing case.
You'd think that after thousands of years of pondering this same issue, Christians, or other religious organizations, would've come up with something new. They haven't. It's almost as if rather than finding more and more evidence for god, we've found less and less as time goes on. Meaning, not only are we not finding evidence for god as time goes on, we're also finding alternative, logical explanations for things we before attributed to god.
Imagine that.
If you're frightened of dying, and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the Earth.
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RE: How to easily defeat any argument for God
August 13, 2019 at 10:00 pm
(This post was last modified: August 13, 2019 at 10:01 pm by GrandizerII.)
(August 13, 2019 at 9:27 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: You don’t think that science can study whether or not hurting people is good for society? Or whether we desire something? Irrelevant really, just wondering why you picked these two things to focus your throw-away “science can’t x” comments on.
The desirability of well-being actually doesn’t have to be a fact for well being based moralities to be realist. A person may not desire wellbeing at all, but that won’t change what does and doesn’t promote wellbeing.
Sure, people can give you reasons. That rational self interest and blind construction would lead you to their moral propositions, for example. But...ultimately, your desires ( or lack thereof) are your own and no issue whatsoever for realism.
Realism states only that some fact of a matter is the point of reference for moral propositions. Not that you have to give a shit.
It's interesting really because what realism means, the way as you and Vulcan have defined clearly over and over again in these forums (and from the videos I have seen on YouTube), many atheists here who would identify as subjectivists when it comes to morality would actually be moral realists but not realize they are.
(August 13, 2019 at 9:28 pm)EgoDeath Wrote: I'm not sure what the original argument was as the link in the original post was removed. But, luckily, a "how-to guide" is not necessary for defeating arguments for god's existence because, the fact is, there is no argument, empirical or otherwise, for god's existence that actually makes a convincing case.
You'd think that after thousands of years of pondering this same issue, Christians, or other religious organizations, would've come up with something new. They haven't. It's almost as if rather than finding more and more evidence for god, we've found less and less as time goes on. Meaning, not only are we not finding evidence for god as time goes on, we're also finding alternative, logical explanations for things we before attributed to god.
Imagine that.
Exactly. Bayesian probabilities and all that. Progressivism in naturalistic explanations with gradual decline in theistic explanatory power can only lend more credence to naturalism.
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RE: How to easily defeat any argument for God
August 13, 2019 at 10:03 pm
(August 13, 2019 at 10:00 pm)Grandizer Wrote: Exactly. Bayesian probabilities and all that. Progressivism in naturalistic explanations with gradual decline in theistic explanatory power can only lend more credence to naturalism.
God's been disproving its own existence all these years... so to speak.
If you're frightened of dying, and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the Earth.
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RE: How to easily defeat any argument for God
August 13, 2019 at 10:04 pm
(This post was last modified: August 13, 2019 at 10:23 pm by GrandizerII.)
(August 13, 2019 at 9:12 pm)Belaqua Wrote: (August 13, 2019 at 5:17 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Lol, and why shouldn’t we hurt people, Acro? Who or what decides these “oughts” that aren’t, according to you, at all related to physical well-being? Is “The Good” concerned with well-being? Yes, or no?
I wonder if any of us can justify these things.
Why shouldn't we hurt people? Because it works against the wellbeing of them and our society.
Why is it bad to work against that wellbeing? Because we want wellbeing.
Why is it good to want wellbeing? Because we just want it.....
If these ethical principles ultimately come down to habit, or preferences, then they may just change. But if we assert that they are true things, then they are true things that can't be proved by science. Some people would call that immaterial and transcendental. Wittgenstein calls it supernatural. It doesn't matter so much about the terminology.
It seems you are arguing that "wellbeing is something we should value" is a true fact (not a preference) that can't be proved by science. So (I haven't read the whole thread carefully), it makes sense to ask you: why is the desirability of wellbeing a fact, and not just a preference? Who or what decides these “oughts”?
I don't agree it ultimately boils down to tastes and individual preferences but rather there is something that makes sense about defining bad as that which causes harm, for example. From an evolutionary perspective and individual perspective, it makes sense to see it this way.
What I mean is, if you look at the two statements below:
Harm is bad.
Harm is good.
One of them is almost true by definition. The other no rational person would agree can make sense. It's certainly not practical at least. Imagine a world in which the standard is harm is good.
Yes, in real life, things get really complicated but at the core the first statement just seems self-evident.
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