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September 22, 2019 at 1:03 pm (This post was last modified: September 22, 2019 at 1:05 pm by LadyForCamus.)
(September 22, 2019 at 12:32 pm)Lek Wrote:
(September 21, 2019 at 3:43 pm)Grandizer Wrote: Correct me if mistaken, but I didn't see you try to elaborate on your own personal experience(s) with God/Jesus.
I don't really care about scientific evidence here, or even evidence in general. You're never going to be able to provide me that via your own subjective experience, but I would've loved to see you describe in details what convinces you you're in touch with a grand higher power entity that is beyond your imagination.
You keep wanting me to come out with some bizarre, exciting experience I've had with God. Really, it has just come from a continuing study of many faiths and much debate and discussion with people like yourself, then realizing that the only way I would know God is to allow him to reveal himself to me. I figured that if God was real, and I sincerely sought him, then he would reveal himself to me. One night as I was agonizing over the guilt about leaving christianity and the inability to abandon the beliefs I had come to, I was suddenly filled with a feeling of peace and joy and heard the words: "Everything is going to be okay."
How did you determine that the cause of these feelings was god and not you? How did you investigate this experience to reach such a high degree of certainty about the cause? What was your method? That’s what I want to know.
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
(September 21, 2019 at 3:43 pm)Grandizer Wrote: Correct me if mistaken, but I didn't see you try to elaborate on your own personal experience(s) with God/Jesus.
I don't really care about scientific evidence here, or even evidence in general. You're never going to be able to provide me that via your own subjective experience, but I would've loved to see you describe in details what convinces you you're in touch with a grand higher power entity that is beyond your imagination.
You keep wanting me to come out with some bizarre, exciting experience I've had with God.
Well, I expect to read something remarkably "supernaturalistic" in your description. What you said is nothing too different from what I experienced when I was "born again". Easily explained by a study of human psychology ...
September 22, 2019 at 5:17 pm (This post was last modified: September 22, 2019 at 5:28 pm by Lek.)
(September 22, 2019 at 12:55 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: That's true in a limited sense only. Science hasn't gotten nearer to God because the existence of God isn't a scientific question. Properly speaking, science has no business coming down on either side of the God question (although individual scientists are perfectly free to do so).
Boru
I totally agree.
(September 22, 2019 at 1:03 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: How did you determine that the cause of these feelings was god and not you? How did you investigate this experience to reach such a high degree of certainty about the cause? What was your method? That’s what I want to know.
I didn't investigate the experience. I've just kept on the same path since then and continue to ask God to guide me. That was about a year and a half ago.
(September 22, 2019 at 1:15 pm)Grandizer Wrote: Well, I expect to read something remarkably "supernaturalistic" in your description. What you said is nothing too different from what I experienced when I was "born again". Easily explained by a study of human psychology ...
Sure. If that experience was the only thing I based my beliefs on, it would be pretty flimsy. Nobody should base their beliefs entirely on a single mystical experience.
You keep wanting me to come out with some bizarre, exciting experience I've had with God. Really, it has just come from a continuing study of many faiths and much debate and discussion with people like yourself, then realizing that the only way I would know God is to allow him to reveal himself to me. I figured that if God was real, and I sincerely sought him, then he would reveal himself to me. One night as I was agonizing over the guilt about leaving christianity and the inability to abandon the beliefs I had come to, I was suddenly filled with a feeling of peace and joy and heard the words: "Everything is going to be okay."
Since then, I've just focused on God to keep me on the path to him, whichever direction that takes me. I pray daily for him to continue to reveal himself to me and I love to study various religions and beliefs. I have seen that we can't quantify God and all true religions are built on traditions and myths that have developed over time as they sought to understand the understandable. But God's relationship is obtained in the same way by all. That is by going to him in whatever way we do and allowing him to come to us in his way. The important thing is that we are seeking him.
I never would recommend someone leaving their faith. This is what I believe and this is the path I've taken. Of course, I could be wrong, and the worst thing I could do is cause someone else to draw away from God. Don't rely on human opinions for the ultimate answer. We all need to keep our focus on God for guidance as we live our lives.
(September 18, 2019 at 6:37 pm)Lek Wrote: I've been asked a zillion times in this forum to give evidence for why I believe in God and each time the questioner comes back and tells me that's not real evidence. Here's the situation. We have a being who is supernatural. He/She/It can exist without the need to obey any natural laws and therefore, cannot be understood or explained by natural or scientific means.
I always reply that I believe because God has directly impressed me with the awareness of his existence. I list supporting factors as the witness of other believers, evidence of ghosts and other supernatural phenomena, etc. A very conservative estimate of the number of people in the world today who believe in God, in this scientific age, is five billion. These people are from every profession and walk of life.
If God directly illuminates me through supernatural means which cannot be tested by any natural means, how can I give you any other solid evidence other than to relate my experience? You might say I'm suffering from a delusion, but I have no other history of delusions and billions of others who have no history of delusions also believe in God. Billions of these people are moderately or well-educated and realize that the earth revolves around the sun, as you do.
Why don't you accept this as evidence for God?
No, I don't consider it good evidence of god.
Fact is, if god is as all knowing as the bible says she is, she would know exactly what it would take to convince me and everyone else of her existence. If she were all powerful, then whatever criteria that is could easily be achieved by god. If she were all loving and not believing in her would send me to hell, she would want me to believe and would give me a better reason to believe than a book written by sun baked goat herders from 2000 years ago; besides which, if she can't get us into heaven without believing in her, doesn't that kinda take away her claim to be all powerful?
At very least that's my argument for the specific god of the bible. I'd have to imagine I could make similar claims against any kind of monotheistic, all powerful deity. After all, if a perfect being creates such a flawed world as this with people as flawed as some of us are, that certainly questions that gods perfection.
So, omnipotence, omnibenevolence or omnipresence: at least one has to go. If you want to go with some kind of not-quite-perfect god, ok, I suppose that's plausible, but we'd have to discuss the dimensions of such a being before we can discuss her existence.
"If you cling to something as the absolute truth and you are caught in it, when the truth comes in person to knock on your door you will refuse to let it in." ~ Siddhartha Gautama
September 22, 2019 at 8:48 pm (This post was last modified: September 22, 2019 at 8:48 pm by Belacqua.)
(September 22, 2019 at 8:44 pm)TaraJo Wrote: Fact is, if god is as all knowing as the bible says she is, she would know exactly what it would take to convince me and everyone else of her existence. If she were all powerful, then whatever criteria that is could easily be achieved by god. If she were all loving and not believing in her would send me to hell, she would want me to believe and would give me a better reason to believe than a book written by sun baked goat herders from 2000 years ago; besides which, if she can't get us into heaven without believing in her, doesn't that kinda take away her claim to be all powerful?
These are your claims for how an omnipotent God would operate. How do you know that an omnipotent God would agree with you?
It seems to me kind of a big claim to imagine that you know the mind of a deity, or that a deity would necessarily think just as you do.
(Also, as a matter of historical truth, the Bible was not written by goat herders 2000 years ago.)
(September 22, 2019 at 8:44 pm)TaraJo Wrote: Fact is, if god is as all knowing as the bible says she is, she would know exactly what it would take to convince me and everyone else of her existence. If she were all powerful, then whatever criteria that is could easily be achieved by god. If she were all loving and not believing in her would send me to hell, she would want me to believe and would give me a better reason to believe than a book written by sun baked goat herders from 2000 years ago; besides which, if she can't get us into heaven without believing in her, doesn't that kinda take away her claim to be all powerful?
These are your claims for how an omnipotent God would operate. How do you know that an omnipotent God would agree with you?
It seems to me kind of a big claim to imagine that you know the mind of a deity, or that a deity would necessarily think just as you do.
(Also, as a matter of historical truth, the Bible was not written by goat herders 2000 years ago.)
So, you're saying that the creation of a perfect god was created with a mind so imperfect that I'm unable to comprehend her? Again, that seems like a flaw that she easily could have remedied. Christians always seem to lack imagination when considering the potential of an all powerful god.
"If you cling to something as the absolute truth and you are caught in it, when the truth comes in person to knock on your door you will refuse to let it in." ~ Siddhartha Gautama
(September 22, 2019 at 9:09 pm)TaraJo Wrote: So, you're saying that the creation of a perfect god was created with a mind so imperfect that I'm unable to comprehend her? Again, that seems like a flaw that she easily could have remedied. Christians always seem to lack imagination when considering the potential of an all powerful god.
Or it may be that you lack imagination when thinking about a god.
Maybe it would be different than you imagine -- not like yourself!
September 22, 2019 at 9:12 pm (This post was last modified: September 22, 2019 at 9:13 pm by LadyForCamus.)
(September 22, 2019 at 5:17 pm)Lek Wrote:
(September 22, 2019 at 12:55 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: That's true in a limited sense only. Science hasn't gotten nearer to God because the existence of God isn't a scientific question. Properly speaking, science has no business coming down on either side of the God question (although individual scientists are perfectly free to do so).
Boru
I totally agree.
(September 22, 2019 at 1:03 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: How did you determine that the cause of these feelings was god and not you? How did you investigate this experience to reach such a high degree of certainty about the cause? What was your method? That’s what I want to know.
I didn't investigate the experience. I've just kept on the same path since then and continue to ask God to guide me. That was about a year and a half ago.
So, then how do you know that it was a god?
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
(September 22, 2019 at 9:09 pm)TaraJo Wrote: So, you're saying that the creation of a perfect god was created with a mind so imperfect that I'm unable to comprehend her? Again, that seems like a flaw that she easily could have remedied. Christians always seem to lack imagination when considering the potential of an all powerful god.
Or it may be that you lack imagination when thinking about a god.
Maybe it would be different than you imagine -- not like yourself!
I know I'm not like god. First off, I actually exist.
I jest. But to my point.....
If I'm unable to understand something, it's because god designed me to not understand it. After all, if an all powerful god wanted me to have enough understanding to believe in her, wouldn't that easily be within her power? Why would an omnibenevolent being create a being this flawed and then damn them for eternity for it? Either I have a serious design flaw or god is less loving than the new testament would have you believe.
Or, y'know, god is imaginary. Which, honestly, seems like the most likely answer here.
"If you cling to something as the absolute truth and you are caught in it, when the truth comes in person to knock on your door you will refuse to let it in." ~ Siddhartha Gautama
