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RE: Evidence for Believing
October 7, 2019 at 8:12 am
(October 7, 2019 at 2:27 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: The thing with sick people visiting Lourdes and other holy shrines for healing is that the numbers work against them. For instance, in this video religious claim is that out of all the millions of people visiting Lourdes for many years there has been 66 "confirmed healings", which, let's face it, doesn't make any positive impression at all.
Lourdes water didn't cure my little brother when I was in Catholic School (1st Grade), despite the pure faith of my youth and the grandiose claims of the nuns. That may have been the first strike against religion on my long ascent to atheism.
"The world is my country; all of humanity are my brethren; and to do good deeds is my religion." (Thomas Paine)
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RE: Evidence for Believing
October 7, 2019 at 10:42 am
lot's of wheelchairs found at Lourdes bot no wooden legs.
It's amazing 'science' always seems to 'find' whatever it is funded for, and never the oppsite. Drich.
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RE: Evidence for Believing
October 7, 2019 at 11:22 am
(October 7, 2019 at 8:12 am)Gwaithmir Wrote: Lourdes water didn't cure my little brother when I was in Catholic School (1st Grade), despite the pure faith of my youth and the grandiose claims of the nuns.
Exactly! Every day in the world 15 thousand kids under 5 years old dies in unbelievable pain and suffering from parents who are mostly religious, who pray for them and yet they still die. And is there any prayer more unselfish and honest than parent praying for his or hers small child?
(October 7, 2019 at 8:12 am)Cod Wrote: 66 isn't bad actually, when you consider that he's got a hell of a lot on his plate.
That's 0.000825%. If 80k people visits Lourdes each year for 100 years and in all this time there has been 66 miraculous healings, that means that out of all people who visited Lourdes 0.000825% got healed by miracle.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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RE: Evidence for Believing
October 7, 2019 at 11:24 am
(This post was last modified: October 7, 2019 at 11:25 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Inq has decided that gap arguments are poor ones. That makes any discussion of the allegedly miraculous uninformative. It wouldn't matter if there were billions of "confirmed" cases of the supernatural every second. None of them actually certify the supernatural, or a god.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Evidence for Believing
October 7, 2019 at 11:35 am
(This post was last modified: October 7, 2019 at 1:20 pm by Deesse23.)
- Gods ways are mysterious
- Who are you to judge him?
- Dont try god!
- You didnt pray hard enough
- Prayer isnt guaranteed to succeed, that would be too easy
- Free will
- Dead kids end up in heaven
- Man has sinned and has to suffer
- etc
- pp
Cetero censeo religionem delendam esse
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RE: Evidence for Believing
October 7, 2019 at 12:53 pm
(October 7, 2019 at 11:22 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: (October 7, 2019 at 8:12 am)Cod Wrote: 66 isn't bad actually, when you consider that he's got a hell of a lot on his plate.
That's 0.000825%. If 80k people visits Lourdes each year for 100 years and in all this time there has been 66 miraculous healings, that means that out of all people who visited Lourdes 0.000825% got healed by miracle.
Wiki has this info:
An estimated 200 million people have visited the shrine since 1860, and the Roman Catholic Church has officially recognized 69 healings considered miraculous.
So, the actual percentage is 0.0000345%.
So, it is even worse.
And we all know how reliable the Catholic Church's reporting is 
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: Evidence for Believing
October 7, 2019 at 1:12 pm
(October 7, 2019 at 12:53 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: (October 7, 2019 at 11:22 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: That's 0.000825%. If 80k people visits Lourdes each year for 100 years and in all this time there has been 66 miraculous healings, that means that out of all people who visited Lourdes 0.000825% got healed by miracle.
Wiki has this info:
An estimated 200 million people have visited the shrine since 1860, and the Roman Catholic Church has officially recognized 69 healings considered miraculous.
So, the actual percentage is 0.0000345%.
So, it is even worse.
And we all know how reliable the Catholic Church's reporting is
Hey! God is to be found in lost decimals.
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RE: Evidence for Believing
October 7, 2019 at 2:42 pm
(October 7, 2019 at 12:53 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: (October 7, 2019 at 11:22 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: That's 0.000825%. If 80k people visits Lourdes each year for 100 years and in all this time there has been 66 miraculous healings, that means that out of all people who visited Lourdes 0.000825% got healed by miracle.
Wiki has this info:
An estimated 200 million people have visited the shrine since 1860, and the Roman Catholic Church has officially recognized 69 healings considered miraculous.
So, the actual percentage is 0.0000345%.
So, it is even worse.
And we all know how reliable the Catholic Church's reporting is
Well, of course it's a low percentage. That's what makes them miracles.
Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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RE: Evidence for Believing
October 7, 2019 at 6:23 pm
(October 7, 2019 at 2:42 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: (October 7, 2019 at 12:53 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: Wiki has this info:
An estimated 200 million people have visited the shrine since 1860, and the Roman Catholic Church has officially recognized 69 healings considered miraculous.
So, the actual percentage is 0.0000345%.
So, it is even worse.
And we all know how reliable the Catholic Church's reporting is
Well, of course it's a low percentage. That's what makes them miracles.
Boru
The miracle would be that all 200 million were healed.
But here's the thing, this God put everything into motion so that no matter what happens, this is the way he wanted it to happen, no matter how much evil and horrible shit happens, this is how he wants it. No matter if everyone goes to hell and no one gets in heaven, that's just the way it goes.
So he doesn't do miracles, because a miracle would be something that went against how he wanted things to go.
He doesn't listen to prayer because prayer is asking him to change his plan.
And from a deterministic point of view, everything will only happen one particular way anyway. It can only happen this one way, so it's a moot point if a god exists or not.
Nothing changes in the way the universe unfolds.
A god is therefore irrelevant.
Insanity - Doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result
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RE: Evidence for Believing
October 7, 2019 at 6:49 pm
(October 7, 2019 at 6:23 pm)Rahn127 Wrote: The miracle would be that all 200 million were healed.
But here's the thing, this God put everything into motion so that no matter what happens, this is the way he wanted it to happen, no matter how much evil and horrible shit happens, this is how he wants it. No matter if everyone goes to hell and no one gets in heaven, that's just the way it goes.
So he doesn't do miracles, because a miracle would be something that went against how he wanted things to go.
He doesn't listen to prayer because prayer is asking him to change his plan.
And from a deterministic point of view, everything will only happen one particular way anyway. It can only happen this one way, so it's a moot point if a god exists or not.
Nothing changes in the way the universe unfolds.
A god is therefore irrelevant.
This makes me wonder about the idea that a God would only be good or relevant to the extent that it satisfied our individual desires. Give me what I want or I won't believe any more.
Maybe this is a modern view of things -- a good life depends on getting my personal wants satisfied. Society is good insofar as they give me what I ask for. Is it just consumerist?
I suspect that people may have been more humble in earlier times. "Not My Will, But Thine, Be Done." Prayer could be used to adjust the thoughts of the person praying, to be less selfish and get in line with the general good.
It means that demanding cures at a shrine wouldn't be proof of anything.
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