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The hijab (etc) is immodest
#21
RE: The hijab (etc) is immodest
(January 23, 2020 at 10:00 pm)Belacqua Wrote: In the US, for example, a woman who decided to go naked from the waist down at the supermarket would be chastised. 

As do men, but not if they go to some other places like a nudist beach, while women in Muslim countries don't have that kind of freedom and must be covered all the time everywhere.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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#22
RE: The hijab (etc) is immodest
(January 24, 2020 at 3:01 am)Fake Messiah Wrote:
(January 23, 2020 at 10:00 pm)Belacqua Wrote: In the US, for example, a woman who decided to go naked from the waist down at the supermarket would be chastised. 

As do men, but not if they go to some other places like a nudist beach, while women in Muslim countries don't have that kind of freedom and must be covered all the time everywhere.

I have said a couple of times now that rules for modesty differ from place to place. Nude beaches are not the same as supermarkets. 

What you say about Muslim countries is oversimple. It's normal in some Muslim countries, but not in others, that women must be "covered all the time everywhere," when they are not at home. You perceive this to be a lack of freedom. They perceive it to be a normal sense of modesty. 

Hijabs are banned in Tajikistan, a Muslim country, and in government offices in Tunisia, also Muslim. They were banned at Turkish universities until very recently. Standards vary widely among Muslim countries. Saudi Arabia is strict and may require a full burqa. Other countries think a simple headscarf is enough. Peter Hitchens has written about his travels in various Muslim countries, and how he saw many women who had the headscarf pushed so far back as to make it meaningless, and did so with impunity. When the US can refrain from overthrowing a Muslim country's secular leadership, standards seem to loosen.

Ilhan Omar continues to wear a scarf, while her teenage daughter doesn't. Do you think that Omar lacks freedom? Or is this a choice she makes?
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#23
RE: The hijab (etc) is immodest
(January 24, 2020 at 4:46 am)Belacqua Wrote: I have said a couple of times now that rules for modesty differ from place to place. Nude beaches are not the same as supermarkets.

And I have tried to explain it to you that those are the same rules for women and men. Yes, some places have code of conduct how to dress, in some restaurants men must wear ties, while some other let you be naked. And that's probably because there is a difference between covering your ass and genitals and where you're not allowed to show your hair and even face.

(January 24, 2020 at 4:46 am)Belacqua Wrote: Ilhan Omar continues to wear a scarf, while her teenage daughter doesn't. Do you think that Omar lacks freedom? Or is this a choice she makes?

I'm not worried about some woman that wants to wear a hijab but millions of others that don't want to wear hijab and get in a lot of trouble because of that.



teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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#24
RE: The hijab (etc) is immodest
(January 24, 2020 at 6:03 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: And I have tried to explain it to you that those are the same rules for women and men.
This is obviously false. 

In the US, the occasions when women can show their nipples are far fewer than occasions when men can. It's odd that you have to be told this.

This seems normal to us, because we were raised that way. But there's nothing intrinsic in nature which makes it that way. Every society has customs. Other society's customs seem normal to them. Declaring that our customs are better than other people's customs, when both are purely based in tradition, is just chauvinism.
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#25
RE: The hijab (etc) is immodest
(January 24, 2020 at 6:49 am)Belacqua Wrote:
(January 24, 2020 at 6:03 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: And I have tried to explain it to you that those are the same rules for women and men.
This is obviously false. 

In the US, the occasions when women can show their nipples are far fewer than occasions when men can. It's odd that you have to be told this.

This seems normal to us, because we were raised that way. But there's nothing intrinsic in nature which makes it that way. Every society has customs. Other society's customs seem normal to them. Declaring that our customs are better than other people's customs, when both are purely based in tradition, is just chauvinism.

Agreed.

'BRITANNUS (shocked). Caesar: this is not proper.

THEODOTUS (outraged). How!

CAESAR  Pardon him, Theodotus: he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature.' - Shaw, Caesar and Cleopatra

Boru
‘Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.’ Ralph Waldo Emerson
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#26
RE: The hijab (etc) is immodest
Criticizing other cultures is one giant landmine, but unless we mean nothing at all with our moral and ethical pronouncements - then it should at least be possible to assess any culture, another's or our own, and point out inequities that are more than "just another tradition", and that no amount of being based in any tradition justifies.

All human societies have taboos about body. Broadly, these are ways of minimizing social awkwardness or tension. We can all agree that some consideration for our fellow man might be in order while we decide when and wear to rock out with our cocks out - but we can also see when some strategies for minimizing social tension cause an even greater issue than the one that they are (at least presumably) tailored to address.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#27
RE: The hijab (etc) is immodest
To say that we should respect all cultures equally is a red herring. No two cultures are equal.

Same with tradition, they should be treated on basis of merit, not because we respect them or whatever.
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself — and you are the easiest person to fool." - Richard P. Feynman
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#28
RE: The hijab (etc) is immodest
(January 24, 2020 at 6:49 am)Belacqua Wrote: In the US, the occasions when women can show their nipples are far fewer than occasions when men can. It's odd that you have to be told this.

Really, it's odd? You compared people not being allowed to walk with their uncovered assholes down the food aisles with women who have to cover their hair and faces and you're telling me I'm odd and not able to understand.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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#29
RE: The hijab (etc) is immodest
It's a strained comparison...but if we insist on maintaining it then we could conclude that both are examples of a similar type of control. The reason that an appeal to hypocrisy, which is what this ultimately is, fails...is that it only points out two bad things. Not that one is less bad or not bad on account of the other.

So, fine..on some level the things we do and don't have to cover up is questionable, but if so, being forced to cover up more and in more contexts could only be more so. We get here just considering the abstract, but we haven't even touched on the application of the principle. It's use in past and present. If we do that, and we can do it even by reference to our own culture and it's own use - we'll find more and more and more examples of the human consequences of such behavior. Again, if the comparison holds, this would only serve to establish and more fully explain the initial criticism of the other.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#30
RE: The hijab (etc) is immodest
But thing is also that men and women do dress to almost being naked even they're in the street in some places like South Beach Miami, like remember that scene from "Birdcage"



teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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