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The hijab (etc) is immodest
#11
RE: The hijab (etc) is immodest
The hijab has no practicality and was imposed on women by primitively sexist men.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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#12
RE: The hijab (etc) is immodest
(December 10, 2019 at 9:56 am)BrokenQuill92 Wrote: At least in western cultures. When standard dress is jeans and a tee shirt, what you’re actually doing is drawing more attention to yourself. Most people will let their eyes slide right past a woman in jeans, a tee shirt and a ponytail. Besides that is it not an insult to your own god to claim that he has made your own natural body inappropriate?

Well, different places have different ideas about showing the body.

In the US a man can drive without a shirt or walk down the street on a hot day, but wouldn't be served in a sit-down restaurant. If that seems reasonable to you, then you agree that society can impose norms on nudity. 

I remember a case in the news about the south of France a while back. The beaches are topless and everybody's OK with that, but some women near the beach would go topless into the post office or the bank. People complained. It made the news because the mayor of the town made an impolitic (and typically male) answer -- he said it was OK with him if the woman was cute. 

Do you think your local library would be reasonable to ban nudity? I think they would. This means that I agree with societal rules about covering the body, not complete freedom for individuals. My rules happen to differ from those in some other countries. None of this is particularly logical. Why cover breasts and not elbows? The crotch and not the hair?
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#13
RE: The hijab (etc) is immodest
(January 20, 2020 at 7:00 pm)Paleophyte Wrote:
(December 10, 2019 at 9:56 am)BrokenQuill92 Wrote: At least in western cultures. When standard dress is jeans and a tee shirt, what you’re actually doing is drawing more attention to yourself. Most people will let their eyes slide right past a woman in jeans, a tee shirt and a ponytail. Besides that is it not an insult to your own god to claim that he has made your own natural body inappropriate?

Wear what you like, I couldn't care less, but when conformity equals modesty you have a problem with your culture.

The whole point of modesty is not sticking out. And I’m only pointing out the obvious. By dressing they way they do certain Muslims are lying to themselves about the concept of modesty. I’m by no means saying any should dress a certain way. Simply pointing out their motives are flawed.
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#14
RE: The hijab (etc) is immodest
(January 21, 2020 at 8:29 am)BrokenQuill92 Wrote: The whole point of modesty is not sticking out. 

I'm not sure that this is true.

Suppose you were raised in a culture where showing your hair is considered immodest. If you then moved to Florida, you would still feel immodest showing your hair, even though everyone around you does it. 

So in that case it would be your modesty that causes you to stick out.

More troubling to me are the people who would tease or call out the woman wearing the head scarf because she is sticking out. One of the reasons my midwest hometown is unpleasant is because the people there enforce an unofficial dress code. If you wear the wrong kind of thing, people will actually yell sarcastic things at you from moving cars. The last time I was there I was wearing a black suit, as I do every day in Japan, and people made it clear that I should wear only a tee shirt and jeans, as everyone there does.
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#15
RE: The hijab (etc) is immodest
Can anybody else work out why Bel thought that whopper was a good idea?
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#16
RE: The hijab (etc) is immodest
(January 21, 2020 at 6:36 pm)Belacqua Wrote: Suppose you were raised in a culture where showing your hair is considered immodest. If you then moved to Florida, you would still feel immodest showing your hair, even though everyone around you does it. 

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teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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#17
RE: The hijab (etc) is immodest
There is something sinister about a woman being forced to wear the hijab, and especially the niqab, obviously.

I find it ironic that islamic women talk about being a preference - in western countries, where Islam is the minority - while women are chastised for removing them in Islamic dominated countries. Don't they see the contradiction here?
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself — and you are the easiest person to fool." - Richard P. Feynman
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#18
RE: The hijab (etc) is immodest
This topic have been covered 1 million times in here. Trolls and anti-Islamic Jihadi keyboard warriors spread the same message over and over and over in the comments. It became tiresome, but this is the web; what can we do
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#19
RE: The hijab (etc) is immodest
(January 23, 2020 at 8:32 pm)Sal Wrote: There is something sinister about a woman being forced to wear the hijab, and especially the niqab, obviously.

I find it ironic that islamic women talk about being a preference - in western countries, where Islam is the minority - while women are chastised for removing them in Islamic dominated countries. Don't they see the contradiction here?

If the society you live in considers something to be immodest, then people in that society will chastise you for doing it. 

In the US, for example, a woman who decided to go naked from the waist down at the supermarket would be chastised. 

In Japan before Western influence, women showed their breasts fairly casually, compared to the USA today. You can see from Edo period porn that breasts weren't considered all that sexy. Sexy kimono flattened the bust and showed no cleavage, but the back of the neck was an erogenous zone, and a woman who let the collar of her kimono gape open three inches at the back would be stared at by horny men. Your dad wouldn't let you leave the house dressed like that.

In an earlier age, Tamakazura would never dare to show her teeth to a man she wasn't sleeping with. If you got on the same side of the folding screen as Lady Kokiden and saw her full face, even if she were fully clothed, it would be a clear indication that you can have sex with her. 

Women at the time considered all this normal, because it is how people in their place and time drew the boundaries.
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#20
RE: The hijab (etc) is immodest
(January 20, 2020 at 4:34 pm)Prycejosh1987 Wrote:
(December 10, 2019 at 9:56 am)BrokenQuill92 Wrote: At least in western cultures. When standard dress is jeans and a tee shirt, what you’re actually doing is drawing more attention to yourself. Most people will let their eyes slide right past a woman in jeans, a tee shirt and a ponytail. Besides that is it not an insult to your own god to claim that he has made your own natural body inappropriate?

I agree with you. Its not a sin to show off your body but it is a sin to deliberately entice others to sin by looking at you. Making people fall in lust over you would be sin. Rightly so. I think we should have laws that make sense not like sharia law which makes no sense whatsoever.
If a particular religion wants to have a dress code under threat of expulsion, they can knock themselves out, that's their right. But the government/law should never enforce any kinds of those codes. If looking at a woman is a "sin", that's between you, your god, and your church. The government should have no concern over that.
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