[Serious] Why are you an Atheist?

[mordant]

I think anything is possible.  We usually think of prayer as something of a request and then some base belief on the “answer” or lack of one.  Make me rich make me famous make me well make me strong make me etc etc etc.  Solve all of my immediate problems and do it right now or else.

Christianity teaches two broad categories of prayer. One might be called "meditative prayer", of the "not my will but thine be done" variety. The other is making requests. These can be anything from "help me find my car keys" to "spare my spouse this suffering, cancer and death" or anything in between. It generally in practice doesn't have an "or else" element to it or has as its focus "immediate" problems. In my practice back in the day it was mostly vague platitudes asking for grace, wisdom, and protection more generally. I did not attempt to cash in big poker chips like "don't let her die" unless I really, REALLY had to, because I sensed god wasn't as deeply interventionist as he was portrayed.

But he IS portrayed as such. While there IS "meditative prayer" and the Bible arguably has more of that teaching than many [care to] realize, it is also indisputable that the Bible is filled with elaborate, detailed, baroque promises of largesse for the faithful. God blesses the righteous and confounds the wicked. Test me and see if I won't open the storehouses of heaven and rain down blessings on you. You have not because you ask not. If you have enough faith (and you only need an eensy bit, the size of a mustard seed) then you can command a mountain to be cast into the sea and it will be so. And on and on. And on.

It was this "god has you in his back pocket and has adopted you as his beloved child" ethos that led me to have inflated and ridiculous expectations of how my life as a True Believer was destined to play out.

Needless to say, it didn't work out that way.

If there's one single major source of deconversions of devout Christians, it is that the lavish promises of Christianity to its adherents do not at all accurately explain or predict lived experience.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I'm beginning to suspect we're not following the script very closely.

[mordant]

From that moment onward, I knew that I was an atheist and probably had been one for some time without realizing it.

I think the realization comes to many of us in just that way. By the time I was willing to speak the unspeakable and apply that once-despised label to myself, I had organically BEEN there for some time already.

To this day my wife, who has NEVER been a believer, is uneasy calling herself an atheist, because in her mind, atheist implies some kind of firebrand reactionary anti-theist activism that she can't summon the enthusiasm for. She is indifferent to god because no one has ever demonstrated a coherent definition of same, or any relevance to her life or thinking. Also in my observation this tends to be a more common view in women, who are inherently more socially aware than men, and who value trust relationships accordingly -- relationships that are damaged by the snap judgments people make about atheists. Thus my wife would identify, IF pressed, as an agnostic or areligious person who hadn't been to church since her mother dragged her to the UU "church".

It has taken me ten years to get her to admit that by technical definition she is an atheist. "I guess I'm an atheist, aren't I" she'll now say, only half believing it. I suspect this is where a LOT of people are. If you didn't have to remove yourself FROM theism and its harms and the associated disillusionment, then atheism isn't a very useful concept to you. It has little utility apart from providing a contrast to, or someplace to go to, out of theism.

[maxolla]

I think anything is possible.  We usually think of prayer as something of a request and then some base belief on the “answer” or lack of one.  Make me rich make me famous make me well make me strong make me etc etc etc.  Solve all of my immediate problems and do it right now or else.

Christianity teaches two broad categories of prayer. One might be called "meditative prayer", of the "not my will but thine be done" variety. The other is making requests. These can be anything from "help me find my car keys" to "spare my spouse this suffering, cancer and death" or anything in between. It generally in practice doesn't have an "or else" element to it or has as its focus "immediate" problems. In my practice back in the day it was mostly vague platitudes asking for grace, wisdom, and protection more generally. I did not attempt to cash in big poker chips like "don't let her die" unless I really, REALLY had to, because I sensed god wasn't as deeply interventionist as he was portrayed.

But he IS portrayed as such. While there IS "meditative prayer" and the Bible arguably has more of that teaching than many [care to] realize, it is also indisputable that the Bible is filled with elaborate, detailed, baroque promises of largesse for the faithful. God blesses the righteous and confounds the wicked. Test me and see if I won't open the storehouses of heaven and rain down blessings on you. You have not because you ask not. If you have enough faith (and you only need an eensy bit, the size of a mustard seed) then you can command a mountain to be cast into the sea and it will be so. And on and on. And on.

It was this "god has you in his back pocket and has adopted you as his beloved child" ethos that led me to have inflated and ridiculous expectations of how my life as a True Believer was destined to play out.

Needless to say, it didn't work out that way.

If there's one single major source of deconversions of devout Christians, it is that the lavish promises of Christianity to its adherents do not at all accurately explain or predict lived experience.

I believe this is an accurate assessment but I would follow it up with possibly a more relevant deconversion in a teaching of a God of love who punishes those who reject him with an eternity of torturous fire.

I think these two teachings have created the vacuum necessary for the naturalist view among others.

The latter I have not had to contend with because it is clearly not taught in scripture. The former I have had to grapple with on an ongoing basis. Particularly hard to understand for me has been the story of Job.

[The Grand Nudger]

You probably shouldn't confuse the parts of magic book that you believe in, and the interpretations of those parts that you believe in, with what is and isn't "taught in scripture". There's really nothing that you could say about those items that others believe in that some other can't or doesn't also and equally say of your own items.

From the outside looking in, you all have to be given broad leeway, since there is no such thing as a christian monolith, either in practice, or exegesis.

You don't contend with the sorts of things that you don't believe in...because you don't believe in them. Not because they're not there. I would find it much more surprising if a person did include, in their beliefs, things they have trouble believing. I've yet to meet a christian that doesn't draw the line somewhere. This immediately begs a question..if job is problematic for you. Why not ditch it? You ditched hell, after all.

[maxolla]

You probably shouldn't confuse the parts of magic book that you believe in, and the interpretations of those parts that you believe in, with what is and isn't "taught in scripture". There's really nothing that you could say about those items that others believe in that some other can't or doesn't also and equally say of your own items.

From the outside looking in, you all have to be given broad leeway, since there is no such thing as a christian monolith, either in practice, or exegesis.

You don't contend with the sorts of things that you don't believe in...because you don't believe in them. Not because they're not there. I would find it much more surprising if a person did include, in their beliefs, things they have trouble believing. I've yet to meet a christian that doesn't draw the line somewhere. This immediately begs a question..if job is problematic for you. Why not ditch it? You ditched hell, after all.

)
I have questions about many things that I have left with “I don’t know”. Throwing the baby out with the bath water is always an option (everything or nothing) but belief doesn’t quite work that way.

The theory of evolution isn’t monolithic as far as I know. New discoveries have been made which tweak the theory from time to time. Can you apply the same standard to your own beliefs? BTW I threw out the idea of hell because I can’t find its scriptural basis not based on “proof”, whatever that is. We had this discussion earlier I think. Their is no proof of evolution but many people believe it because “science says so”, even though scientists can’t even agree 100% on the age of the earth or anything else.

[The Grand Nudger]

How did we get onto evolution? We already have a thread for idiotic creationist drivel. No need to clutter this one.

What beliefs would you like me to apply whatever it is you think I should apply to them? What are my beliefs..what do you know about me, broadly speaking? I know what I know about your beliefs because you volunteered the information.......but.....can you recall any time that you ever asked or I ever offered my own?

Why waste your breath arguing about how hell isn't in magic book, lol, it is...but it doesn't really matter. Plenty of shit that isn't in magic book is believed by christians, you would be an anomaly if you weren't one them..and..similarly, no christian believes everything in magic book. You all have lines. Those lines define schisms, of which there are tens of thousands...and on top of that an uncountable number of private schisms within the schismatic movements also exist as the individual belief of any given adherent.

Back to the issue at hand, what makes youy think that..whatever my beliefs may be - that you know nothing about- I havent already applied my own thoughts to them? What are the fuckin chances of that, honestly, sight unseen? I also have a question as to what baby you would be throwing out if you tossed out job? Job is just a story, written by people, it's not a god. Isn't god the baby that we're discussing? Why would accepting that the story you find in job is a morality play written by humans be tantamount to throwing out that baby? The all or nothing gambit is exactly what I'm asking you about. If job was fiction, as it and so many other stories in magic book certainly are..........then what? God isn't real?

[The Architect Of Fate]

You probably shouldn't confuse the parts of magic book that you believe in, and the interpretations of those parts that you believe in, with what is and isn't "taught in scripture".  There's really nothing that you could say about those items that others believe in that some other can't  or doesn't also and equally say of your own items.  

From the outside looking in, you all have to be given broad leeway, since there is no such thing as a christian monolith, either in practice, or exegesis.

You don't contend with the sorts of things that you don't believe in...because you don't believe in them.  Not because they're not there.  I would find it much more surprising if a person did include, in their beliefs, things they have trouble believing.  I've yet to meet a christian that doesn't draw the line somewhere.  This immediately begs a question..if job is problematic for you.  Why not ditch it?  You ditched hell, after all.

)
I have questions about many things that I have left with “I don’t know”.  Throwing the baby out with the bath water is always an option (everything or nothing) but belief doesn’t quite work that way.

The theory of evolution isn’t monolithic as far as I know.  New discoveries have been made which tweak the theory from time to time.  Can you apply the same standard to your own beliefs?  BTW I threw out the idea of hell because I can’t find its scriptural basis not based on “proof”, whatever that is.  We had this discussion earlier I think.  Their is no proof of evolution but many people believe it because “science says so”, even though scientists can’t even agree 100% on the age of the earth or anything else.

Yeah your statement about science is wrong .We know the age of he earth beyond reasonable doubt and no new discovery in he last 150 years is a real challenge to evolution.no it's not because science says so ,And he central idea's of evolution are solid .So on all counts your wrong .

[The Grand Nudger]

Meh, those were throwaway statements, as were the questions about my unspecified belief. Defense mechanisms for being asked to think rather than dictate - which is what Max came here to do.

I think he can exceed his own intentions and expectations, though. He's a human being, we do that from time to time. Lets see if this is one of those times.

[maxolla]

)
I have questions about many things that I have left with “I don’t know”.  Throwing the baby out with the bath water is always an option (everything or nothing) but belief doesn’t quite work that way.

The theory of evolution isn’t monolithic as far as I know.  New discoveries have been made which tweak the theory from time to time.  Can you apply the same standard to your own beliefs?  BTW I threw out the idea of hell because I can’t find its scriptural basis not based on “proof”, whatever that is.  We had this discussion earlier I think.  Their is no proof of evolution but many people believe it because “science says so”, even though scientists can’t even agree 100% on the age of the earth or anything else.

Yeah your statement about science is wrong .We know the age of he earth beyond reasonable doubt and no new discovery in he last 150 years is a real challenge to evolution.no it's not because science says so ,And he central idea's of evolution are solid .So on all counts your wrong .

Whats the age of the earth?