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Poll: Is my poetry nice?
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[Serious] Poetry
#21
RE: Poetry
The best poem ever:

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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#22
RE: Poetry
(January 8, 2020 at 1:19 am)Brian37 Wrote:
(January 8, 2020 at 1:04 am)LadyForCamus Wrote: Are you implying there is no skill or forethought required to create poetry that affects people?  That concepts like word choice, syntax, tone, line breaks, sonics, and form are not important in crafting art in written form? If so, then you’re grossly underestimating the very thing you claim to love. Give the art of poetry a little more damn credit than that, will ya?

I am saying not everyone needs to write like Shakespeare. When you go to a bar, or to a friends house do you constantly talk like that?

ART is ultimately subjective. PERIOD!

Art is simply what works. THAT IS IT. 

You do not get to decide what others like.

I never said anything about Shakespeare, holy hell. I’m saying poetry is an art form just like any other, and to do it well requires skill and practice, and an understanding of the fundamental concepts that make poetry poetry, rather than just personal journal ramblings. When someone is composing a song on the piano, is it a good song if they just start banging on keys? Or, in order to make a song that has the capacity to move the listener, must they have a basic grasp of the fundamentals of music theory; things like dynamics, octaves, harmony, key, pitch, intonation, melody, etc? If you want to just feel good, go bang on keys. If you want to make a song that can affect the person listening to it (that is the goal of all artwork of any form) you need to be familiar and practiced on these concepts. If you want to write for yourself; to get shit off your chest; by all means do whatever you want. If you actually care about how what you write makes other people feel, then you need to go study the fundamentals of how poetry achieves that goal. There’s really no way around that. Art is about creating an emotional experience for the experiencer, not the artist.
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”

Wiser words were never spoken. 
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#23
RE: Poetry
(January 8, 2020 at 5:17 am)LadyForCamus Wrote:
(January 8, 2020 at 1:19 am)Brian37 Wrote: I am saying not everyone needs to write like Shakespeare. When you go to a bar, or to a friends house do you constantly talk like that?

ART is ultimately subjective. PERIOD!

Art is simply what works. THAT IS IT. 

You do not get to decide what others like.

I never said anything about Shakespeare, holy hell. I’m saying poetry is an art form just like any other, and to do it well requires skill and practice, and an understanding of the fundamental concepts that make poetry poetry, rather than just personal journal ramblings. When someone is composing a song on the piano, is it a good song if they just start banging on keys? Or, in order to make a song that has the capacity to move the listener, must they have a basic grasp of the fundamentals of music theory; things like dynamics, octaves, harmony, key, pitch, intonation, melody, etc? If you want to just feel good, go bang on keys. If you want to make a song that can affect the person listening to it (that is the goal of all artwork of any form) you need to be familiar and practiced on these concepts. If you want to write for yourself; to get shit off your chest; by all means do whatever you want. If you actually care about how what you write makes other people feel, then you need to go study the fundamentals of how poetry achieves that goal. There’s really no way around that. Art is about creating an emotional experience for the experiencer, not the artist.

I think this pretty much nails it.  Art is the attempt to elicit an emotional response.  To do so successfully is going to require a set of skills.  Great poets have these skills and are very, very good at employing them towards a particular end.  While it is perfectly true that not everyone needs to 'write like Shakespeare', aspiring poets study him for a whole raft of very good reasons.

The whole post-modern notion that 'Art is whatever the artist decides it is' is so much rubbish.

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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#24
RE: Poetry
(January 8, 2020 at 5:50 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:
(January 8, 2020 at 5:17 am)LadyForCamus Wrote: I never said anything about Shakespeare, holy hell. I’m saying poetry is an art form just like any other, and to do it well requires skill and practice, and an understanding of the fundamental concepts that make poetry poetry, rather than just personal journal ramblings. When someone is composing a song on the piano, is it a good song if they just start banging on keys? Or, in order to make a song that has the capacity to move the listener, must they have a basic grasp of the fundamentals of music theory; things like dynamics, octaves, harmony, key, pitch, intonation, melody, etc? If you want to just feel good, go bang on keys. If you want to make a song that can affect the person listening to it (that is the goal of all artwork of any form) you need to be familiar and practiced on these concepts. If you want to write for yourself; to get shit off your chest; by all means do whatever you want. If you actually care about how what you write makes other people feel, then you need to go study the fundamentals of how poetry achieves that goal. There’s really no way around that. Art is about creating an emotional experience for the experiencer, not the artist.

I think this pretty much nails it.  Art is the attempt to elicit an emotional response.  To do so successfully is going to require a set of skills.  Great poets have these skills and are very, very good at employing them towards a particular end.  While it is perfectly true that not everyone needs to 'write like Shakespeare', aspiring poets study him for a whole raft of very good reasons.

The whole post-modern notion that 'Art is whatever the artist decides it is' is so much rubbish.

Boru

It really is. That type of attitude denigrates the craft itself. If everything can be art, then why call anything art? If art is something so thoughtless and banal that any chimp can smear their poo on a canvass and voila, then what are we even talking about?
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”

Wiser words were never spoken. 
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#25
RE: Poetry
Mark Doty; one of my favorite modern poets. The last three stanzas give me chills every time:

A Green Crab’s Shell

Not, exactly, green:
closer to bronze
preserved in kind brine,

something retrieved
from a Greco-Roman wreck,
patinated and oddly

muscular. We cannot
know what his fantastic
legs were like--

though evidence
suggests eight
complexly folded

scuttling works
of armament, crowned
by the foreclaws'

gesture of menace
and power. A gull's
gobbled the center,

leaving this chamber
--size of a demitasse--
open to reveal

a shocking, Giotto blue.
Though it smells
of seaweed and ruin,

this little traveling case
comes with such lavish lining!
Imagine breathing

surrounded by
the brilliant rinse
of summer's firmament.

What color is
the underside of skin?
Not so bad, to die,

if we could be opened
into this--
if the smallest chambers

of ourselves,
similarly,
revealed some sky.
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”

Wiser words were never spoken. 
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#26
RE: Poetry
(January 8, 2020 at 12:20 am)LadyForCamus Wrote: Atlas, if you are serious about poetry and serious about improving, you need to find a high-quality workshop forum and be prepared for hard work and intense critique. I use everypoet.org. They are brutal, but you’ll get serious, valuable feedback from folks who have actually been published. It’s an amazing resource if you actually care about improving, but it will probably traumatize you if you’re just looking for people to tell you that you’re good. It’s up to you in the end, but honestly, there isn’t much we can do for you here on an atheist forum, ya know?

I visited the forum, read me a couple of poems.
But as I expected: the problem I have is that I can't quite understand the concept of English poetry in comparison to Arabic poetry.

Arabic poems are very hard to construct, and they must have a rhyme, keeping the rhyme with the consistent semantic is a must. English poetry seems about the semantic with weak focus on the rhyme -lol unless you are a rapper- Big Grin

Ah, about me posting it here, actually I think I know that I know nothing about English poetry -_- song lyrics are not enough to teach you all about it

(January 8, 2020 at 1:19 am)Brian37 Wrote:
(January 8, 2020 at 1:04 am)LadyForCamus Wrote: Are you implying there is no skill or forethought required to create poetry that affects people?  That concepts like word choice, syntax, tone, line breaks, sonics, and form are not important in crafting art in written form? If so, then you’re grossly underestimating the very thing you claim to love. Give the art of poetry a little more damn credit than that, will ya?

I am saying not everyone needs to write like Shakespeare. When you go to a bar, or to a friends house do you constantly talk like that?

ART is ultimately subjective. PERIOD!

Art is simply what works. THAT IS IT. 

You do not get to decide what others like.

But some stuff do affect you strongly; check this song for example:






-Lyrics-



Some works of art strike you Brian, and drop their weight no matter what -green day are in The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame-.

(January 8, 2020 at 5:50 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:
(January 8, 2020 at 5:17 am)LadyForCamus Wrote: I never said anything about Shakespeare, holy hell. I’m saying poetry is an art form just like any other, and to do it well requires skill and practice, and an understanding of the fundamental concepts that make poetry poetry, rather than just personal journal ramblings. When someone is composing a song on the piano, is it a good song if they just start banging on keys? Or, in order to make a song that has the capacity to move the listener, must they have a basic grasp of the fundamentals of music theory; things like dynamics, octaves, harmony, key, pitch, intonation, melody, etc? If you want to just feel good, go bang on keys. If you want to make a song that can affect the person listening to it (that is the goal of all artwork of any form) you need to be familiar and practiced on these concepts. If you want to write for yourself; to get shit off your chest; by all means do whatever you want. If you actually care about how what you write makes other people feel, then you need to go study the fundamentals of how poetry achieves that goal. There’s really no way around that. Art is about creating an emotional experience for the experiencer, not the artist.

I think this pretty much nails it.  Art is the attempt to elicit an emotional response.  To do so successfully is going to require a set of skills.  Great poets have these skills and are very, very good at employing them towards a particular end.  While it is perfectly true that not everyone needs to 'write like Shakespeare', aspiring poets study him for a whole raft of very good reasons.

The whole post-modern notion that 'Art is whatever the artist decides it is' is so much rubbish.

Boru

The talent moves you to be honest. That's what I feel comparing to things I truly have a talent in
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#27
RE: Poetry
Well...they'll teach you about the abab scheme (or aaBB) - which fits (in any language, including arabic) with melody...and rhythm.  Even in pop songs people step out.  Some of that shit only fits in specific dialects. Two words might only rhyme in english if you're from a particular place...the same being true of arabic.

This amounts to vocal fireworks in a performance. 





Fun fact, you can learn three chords and play any pop song in english, five if you're fancy.

-if you really wanted to see how malleable english pop songs are, try Post Modern Jukebox.

...long story short, is this. Songs, in english, are made for a drunk performer to belt out at a bar to patrons who will appreciate the overall sound while not noticing the technical complexity present, if any.

(January 8, 2020 at 2:18 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: The best poem ever:

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky





Shit is easy to play, -kills- at closing time.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#28
RE: Poetry
People used to asked me why I spent so many years doing pub gigs as opposed to writing and marketing my own stuff.  These are the same people who would sneer at my standard answer ('Because it's easier than working for a living').

Honestly - I could sit in a warm, smoky pub, make wads of cash in tips and a cut of the bar, playing songs for half-in-the-bag tourists that they already knew by heart, OR I could exercise my other option of slowly starving to death.

Decisions, decisions...

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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#29
RE: Poetry
(January 8, 2020 at 5:17 am)LadyForCamus Wrote:
(January 8, 2020 at 1:19 am)Brian37 Wrote: I am saying not everyone needs to write like Shakespeare. When you go to a bar, or to a friends house do you constantly talk like that?

ART is ultimately subjective. PERIOD!

Art is simply what works. THAT IS IT. 

You do not get to decide what others like.

I never said anything about Shakespeare, holy hell. I’m saying poetry is an art form just like any other, and to do it well requires skill and practice, and an understanding of the fundamental concepts that make poetry poetry, rather than just personal journal ramblings. When someone is composing a song on the piano, is it a good song if they just start banging on keys? Or, in order to make a song that has the capacity to move the listener, must they have a basic grasp of the fundamentals of music theory; things like dynamics, octaves, harmony, key, pitch, intonation, melody, etc? If you want to just feel good, go bang on keys. If you want to make a song that can affect the person listening to it (that is the goal of all artwork of any form) you need to be familiar and practiced on these concepts. If you want to write for yourself; to get shit off your chest; by all means do whatever you want. If you actually care about how what you write makes other people feel, then you need to go study the fundamentals of how poetry achieves that goal. There’s really no way around that. Art is about creating an emotional experience for the experiencer, not the artist.

No, it requires copying when you are fishing.

Original thought is art. 

If all art copied prior art art would not change.
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#30
RE: Poetry
(January 9, 2020 at 7:06 pm)Brian37 Wrote:
(January 8, 2020 at 5:17 am)LadyForCamus Wrote: I never said anything about Shakespeare, holy hell. I’m saying poetry is an art form just like any other, and to do it well requires skill and practice, and an understanding of the fundamental concepts that make poetry poetry, rather than just personal journal ramblings. When someone is composing a song on the piano, is it a good song if they just start banging on keys? Or, in order to make a song that has the capacity to move the listener, must they have a basic grasp of the fundamentals of music theory; things like dynamics, octaves, harmony, key, pitch, intonation, melody, etc? If you want to just feel good, go bang on keys. If you want to make a song that can affect the person listening to it (that is the goal of all artwork of any form) you need to be familiar and practiced on these concepts. If you want to write for yourself; to get shit off your chest; by all means do whatever you want. If you actually care about how what you write makes other people feel, then you need to go study the fundamentals of how poetry achieves that goal. There’s really no way around that. Art is about creating an emotional experience for the experiencer, not the artist.

No, it requires copying when you are fishing.

Original thought is art. 

If all art copied prior art art would not change.

...what?
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”

Wiser words were never spoken. 
Reply



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