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The brazen bull in the Quran?
March 4, 2020 at 4:41 am
The brazen bull is an ancient torture method that includes the "roasting of the victim" to death inside a "bronze" bull. The bull made a sound when the victims start to scream from the pain.
It was claimed to be invented by the ancient Greeks by Diodorus Siculus, recounting the story in Bibliotheca historica :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazen_bull
But the sound produced by the bull does open a new theory to me when looking at this ancient passage from the Quran:
Quote:Sura 7, The Quran:
https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#...rans=en_sh
( 148 ) And the people of Moses made, after [his departure], from their ornaments a calf - an image having a lowing sound. Did they not see that it could neither speak to them nor guide them to a way? They took it [for worship], and they were wrongdoers.
The bible has a similar story; but it never mentions the "lowing sound". The brazen bull is unique for its sound; just like the mentioned calf is unique for its sound.
Burnt offerings were claimed by the bible to be "offered" for the calf. So were they put inside it; and it is the origin of the brazen bull ? but instead of "offerings" people were put inside later by the Greeks ?
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RE: The brazen bull in the Quran?
March 4, 2020 at 5:02 am
Moses never existed, he was a Jewish plagiarism of Sargon (possibly by Ezra).
Ezra would have been well aware of Greek items in the post Alexandrian period.
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RE: The brazen bull in the Quran?
March 4, 2020 at 5:15 am
(March 4, 2020 at 4:41 am)WinterHold Wrote: The brazen bull is an ancient torture method that includes the "roasting of the victim" to death inside a "bronze" bull. The bull made a sound when the victims start to scream from the pain.
It was claimed to be invented by the ancient Greeks by Diodorus Siculus, recounting the story in Bibliotheca historica :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazen_bull
But the sound produced by the bull does open a new theory to me when looking at this ancient passage from the Quran:
Quote:Sura 7, The Quran:
https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#...rans=en_sh
( 148 ) And the people of Moses made, after [his departure], from their ornaments a calf - an image having a lowing sound. Did they not see that it could neither speak to them nor guide them to a way? They took it [for worship], and they were wrongdoers.
The bible has a similar story; but it never mentions the "lowing sound". The brazen bull is unique for its sound; just like the mentioned calf is unique for its sound.
Burnt offerings were claimed by the bible to be "offered" for the calf. So were they put inside it; and it is the origin of the brazen bull ? but instead of "offerings" people were put inside later by the Greeks ?
Burnt offerings in the Bible were generally made on an altar in the open air inside the Temple, there's no suggestion that they were made inside a bronze bull.
I think the differences in the 'golden calf' story in the Bible and the Quran are the result of sloppy plagiarism, nothing more. Additionally, stories about the brazen bull as a torture device had been around for more than six hundred years before Mohammed got round to commercial religion - it's entirely possible that he'd heard about it and incorporated the 'lowing sound' into his book.
Boru
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RE: The brazen bull in the Quran?
March 4, 2020 at 6:44 am
The lowing sound could have been produced by someone in the base of the idol blowing a horn.
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RE: The brazen bull in the Quran?
March 4, 2020 at 7:12 am
Don't think it would have been big enough.
Alternately, Mohammed could have gotten the story wrong, or could have added the bit about 'lowing' for atmosphere.
Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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RE: The brazen bull in the Quran?
March 4, 2020 at 7:19 am
(March 4, 2020 at 7:12 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Don't think it would have been big enough.
Alternately, Mohammed could have gotten the story wrong, or could have added the bit about 'lowing' for atmosphere.
Boru
The base, not the bull. Run a pipe up one leg.
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RE: The brazen bull in the Quran?
March 4, 2020 at 7:32 am
If you mean the golden calf of the Israelites, it was solid.
If you mean the brazen bull, as described, I don't think it would work. The fire was built under the bull to roast the victim inside. This means the fire would have been built on top the base which would also roast the poor sod blowing through the tube.
Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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RE: The brazen bull in the Quran?
March 4, 2020 at 8:06 am
(March 4, 2020 at 4:41 am)WinterHold Wrote: The brazen bull is an ancient torture method that includes the "roasting of the victim" to death inside a "bronze" bull. The bull made a sound when the victims start to scream from the pain.
It was claimed to be invented by the ancient Greeks by Diodorus Siculus, recounting the story in Bibliotheca historica :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazen_bull
But the sound produced by the bull does open a new theory to me when looking at this ancient passage from the Quran:
Quote:Sura 7, The Quran:
https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#...rans=en_sh
( 148 ) And the people of Moses Moo-ses made, after [his departure], from their ornaments a calf - an image having a lowing sound. Did they not see that it could neither speak to them nor guide them to a way? They took it [for worship], and they were wrongdoers.
The bible has a similar story; but it never mentions the "lowing sound". The brazen bull is unique for its sound; just like the mentioned calf is unique for its sound.
Burnt offerings were claimed by the bible to be "offered" for the calf. So were they put inside it; and it is the origin of the brazen bull ? but instead of "offerings" people were put inside later by the Greeks ?
FTFY
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RE: The brazen bull in the Quran?
March 4, 2020 at 8:10 am
(March 4, 2020 at 8:06 am)brewer Wrote: (March 4, 2020 at 4:41 am)WinterHold Wrote: The brazen bull is an ancient torture method that includes the "roasting of the victim" to death inside a "bronze" bull. The bull made a sound when the victims start to scream from the pain.
It was claimed to be invented by the ancient Greeks by Diodorus Siculus, recounting the story in Bibliotheca historica :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazen_bull
But the sound produced by the bull does open a new theory to me when looking at this ancient passage from the Quran:
The bible has a similar story; but it never mentions the "lowing sound". The brazen bull is unique for its sound; just like the mentioned calf is unique for its sound.
Burnt offerings were claimed by the bible to be "offered" for the calf. So were they put inside it; and it is the origin of the brazen bull ? but instead of "offerings" people were put inside later by the Greeks ?
FTFY
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RE: The brazen bull in the Quran?
March 4, 2020 at 8:17 am
(March 4, 2020 at 7:32 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: If you mean the golden calf of the Israelites, it was solid.
If you mean the brazen bull, as described, I don't think it would work. The fire was built under the bull to roast the victim inside. This means the fire would have been built on top the base which would also roast the poor sod blowing through the tube.
Boru
Depends on how big the base was. If you wanted the calf to be life-sized and tower over the mob then a pyramidal base maybe ten feet high would be good. If you built this with a wall close behind it you could have a hatch in the wall to access the base and leave it open for ventilation. (Put vents in the top of the base, disguised if it's not high enough.)
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