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Big gods came after the rise of civilizations
#11
RE: Big gods came after the rise of civilizations
(April 8, 2020 at 10:57 am)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote:
(April 8, 2020 at 10:02 am)Chad32 Wrote: I never thought about it, but I guess the more advanced and power Humans get, the more advanced and powerful gods need to become. Because if the spirits are no more powerful than Human armies, then why should anyone pay attention to them?
It's dick-sizing. "My God can kick your God's ass." The lies stack up from there.

That too. Why worship god A, when god B is supposedly more powerful. Your god is the volcano, but my god is the sky, that sort of thing.
Poe's Law: "Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing."

10 Christ-like figures that predate Jesus. Link shortened to Chris ate Jesus for some reason...
http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-chris...ate-jesus/

Good video to watch, if you want to know how common the Jesus story really is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88GTUXvp-50

A list of biblical contradictions from the infallible word of Yahweh.
http://infidels.org/library/modern/jim_m...tions.html

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#12
RE: Big gods came after the rise of civilizations
(April 8, 2020 at 11:11 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: It was always an industry.  We only notice that it exists through the production of paraphernalia.

No, it started out as bullshit tales told around a camel dung campfire. The Egyptians industrialized religion.

(April 8, 2020 at 11:38 am)Chad32 Wrote:
(April 8, 2020 at 10:57 am)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: It's dick-sizing. "My God can kick your God's ass." The lies stack up from there.

That too. Why worship god A, when god B is supposedly more powerful. Your god is the volcano, but my god is the sky, that sort of thing.

When Yahweh kicked Egypt's ass it was to show that the most powerful country in the world could be beating by the Hebrew god. Of course other peoples rolled their eyes at that shit.
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#13
RE: Big gods came after the rise of civilizations
Negatron. Religion began at least 45k years before egypt was a twinkle in anyone's eyes, and..again, we only know that because of the mass production of religious paraphernalia.

Spot on with the other thing, though. That particular story is called an establishment myth, and the people who write them know that they didn't happen. It's a description of the world they wish for, not the world that exists, even in their own time. Of a future they desire, rather than the present they occupy.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#14
RE: Big gods came after the rise of civilizations
Big or small gods, our species made all of them up.
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#15
RE: Big gods came after the rise of civilizations
(April 8, 2020 at 10:54 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: There are alot of issues with the moralizing god hypothesis, which the author of the paper alludes to generally and in a few specific examples relevant to their analysis.

The food and trade bit, though, is under the header of ritual observance....which would probably come as a surprise to alot of folks, lol.  It's also the source of things like breaking  bread - and in a more ceremonial form, transubstantiation.  

We probably don't see dinner as a ritual in our everyday lives, but to an anthropologist,  it is.  An artificial behavior that serves the purpose of highlighting and reinforcing the most personal social ties that bind.  Behaviorally equivalent to any church service.

Not in the sense of individuals 'rituals' but in the logistics of actually generating a civilization through agricultural surplus and distribution of excess food through trade.
Without excess food production and distribution there couldn't be specialists in construction, armed forces, art, entertainment, writing, etc.
Quote:I don't understand why you'd come to a discussion forum, and then proceed to reap from visibility any voice that disagrees with you. If you're going to do that, why not just sit in front of a mirror and pat yourself on the back continuously?
-Esquilax

Evolution - Adapt or be eaten.
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#16
RE: Big gods came after the rise of civilizations
Again, while the distinction may make sense in other contexts, it doesn't in anthropological studies. Distribution as we employ it is also a ritual. Food production and distribution, in particular, ritualizes the entire cosmos around us, not just our daily lives. Not just in-tot but down to the individual unit.

Farm chores, for example...-rituals.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#17
RE: Big gods came after the rise of civilizations
(April 8, 2020 at 11:40 am)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote:
(April 8, 2020 at 11:11 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: It was always an industry.  We only notice that it exists through the production of paraphernalia.

No, it started out as bullshit tales told around a camel dung campfire. The Egyptians industrialized religion.

(April 8, 2020 at 11:38 am)Chad32 Wrote: That too. Why worship god A, when god B is supposedly more powerful. Your god is the volcano, but my god is the sky, that sort of thing.

When Yahweh kicked Egypt's ass it was to show that the most powerful country in the world could be beating by the Hebrew god. Of course other peoples rolled their eyes at that shit.

And then he was undone when an army rolled in with iron chariots. Because when things happen in real life, instead of background stories, you can't pretend it didn't happen.
Poe's Law: "Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing."

10 Christ-like figures that predate Jesus. Link shortened to Chris ate Jesus for some reason...
http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-chris...ate-jesus/

Good video to watch, if you want to know how common the Jesus story really is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88GTUXvp-50

A list of biblical contradictions from the infallible word of Yahweh.
http://infidels.org/library/modern/jim_m...tions.html

Reply
#18
RE: Big gods came after the rise of civilizations
The factual undercurrent of eschatalogical belief, right thur. Did god succumb to iron chariots? No, ofc not. A bronze age society faced an iron age threat.

-as examples of the above. The Book of Kings. The "prophecies" of isaiah. The narrative current is the anticipated fall of the northern kingdoms, as told by a pundit living in the southern kingdoms.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#19
RE: Big gods came after the rise of civilizations
(April 8, 2020 at 7:25 am)Fierce Wrote:
Quote:the idea of morally concerned gods is by no means universal. Social scientists have long known that small-scale traditional societies – the kind missionaries used to dismiss as “pagan” – envisaged a spirit world that cared little about the morality of human behaviour.

This way of interpreting history makes a lot of sense to me. I'm glad that these researchers are compiling data.

I want to add, though, that some gods who don't judge, reward, or punish people can still be involved in that society's moral thinking. I think it's too simple to say that just because pagan or animist gods don't behave like Jehovah they are unrelated to what a society considers good. 

So for example the Japanese gods tend to be associated with important social events or rituals. The shrine I can see from my kitchen window is called the Early-Sprouting Rice Field Shrine. It reflects the importance of rice farming to the culture. The god that is enshrined there is associated with planting, which is a communal activity. Though this god doesn't pass judgment, it is (or was) considered important to pay him due respect. 

It's easy for us today to imagine that this god is a fiction that was invented to personify a socially significant activity. Gods in Japan tend to be attached to agriculture, fishing, the hearth, marriage, etc. 

These are not thought of in terms of abstractions like "good" and "evil," but the societal need for people to continue these practices and rituals was considered important. 

People often say that Japan has a "shame culture" rather than a "guilt culture" like Europe. (This is too simple; Japanese people can feel guilt. But as a guideline it is helpful.) Early Japanese societies probably thought less about morality per se and more about "is this guy participating in our neighborhood activities?" Not "does God see his evil heart?" but "is he doing what the Early Sprouting Rice Field god expects from us?"

Any punishment required would come from the other people in the neighborhood. But the gods were often symbols or expressions of the local values.
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#20
RE: Big gods came after the rise of civilizations
Oh jesus christ..this guy......
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply



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