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A 'proof' of God's existence - free will
#21
RE: A 'proof' of God's existence - free will
(April 28, 2020 at 6:02 pm)Nomad Wrote: I don't understand why christians constantly make out that we have free will, it breaks their whole religion.

It establishes responsibility for actions, events, and outcomes.

In any case, if you want a deeply christian take, none of us have free will. We're degenerate sinners who can no more choose to stop than choose to stop being.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#22
RE: A 'proof' of God's existence - free will
(April 28, 2020 at 10:19 am)mrj Wrote:
(April 28, 2020 at 2:14 am)cleansed Wrote: If God did not exist, there could be no free will since everything would determined by natural processes that started at the beginning of the Universe.  If the Universe could be rewound and set in motion at the same point once again it would unfold in exactly the same way every single time.  So no matter what I do I will always do what I have been predetermined to do.  I could try to somehow work against it but of course that was predetermined as well. 

Because God created the Universe, and God is transcendent of the material world, He can give His creatures the ability to make meaningful choices.  Their behavior is no longer solely determined by the initial conditions of the Universe, because God is also influencing their behavior.  If they are predetermined by the Universe to like vanilla ice cream for instance, God can influence them in such a way as to prefer chocolate ice cream. 

Human beings also have a spiritual nature which transcends material reality because they possess a soul and a spirit.  These are additional influences which feed into the choices that they make.  They are influenced not just by the material world, but also the spiritual world and the creatures in it.  So, human behavior could never be predicted by material science only.  Even if you knew and understood everything about the initial conditions of the Universe you would still be unable to accurately predict human behavior.

This is a typical religious response.  We have free will because God gave us free will, even though all evidence, logic, and intuition conflicts with such a statement.  Besides, the notion that God is omniscient is incompatible with free will in any way.  Even ideas such as God having 'middle' knowledge and knowledge of all possibilities including that which will happen make no sense.  Many modern theologians dispense with God being omniscient - it just can't be reconciled.

Regardless, saying God 'gives us the ability to make meaningful choices' is an assertion with no underlying rationale, much less proof. If so, HOW do we make such decisions? How do we change the current deterministic course of events in a willful way?  No answer.  Because you can't.  Even those who claim there is randomness at the quantum level cannot resolve this, because it is STILL randomness.  Execution of some probability is not willful action.  

Which still leads me to WHY do we believe we have free will? What evolutionary benefit is there to thinking my actions are willful when they are not?  The outcome would be the same either way.  Again, I bring up the example of dreaming.  Dreaming is an evolutionary disadvantage.  It requires you to sleep and be defenseless.  Yet we do dream because that is the manifestation of our nerves firing as short-term memory transforms into long-term memory.  So why is deterministic or random (depending on your view) action manifested as the illusion of 'free will'?  I don't have an answer (although I suggested one above).  As such, could such an illusion be provided to us via divine spark?

You haven't offered any proof of your argument, and how could you since you don't know how the Universe was created or what its initial conditions were.  We don't understand that much less the mind of God.  Not understanding that will preclude you from understanding whether we have free will.  

My basic argument for free will is that God has free will and thus can impart it to us.  His choices are not predetermined because there is nothing prior to God to determine them.  God is eternal and sufficient within Himself;  He doesn't depend on anything or need anything for His existence.  (I AM THAT I AM)  Simply put, God is perfect.   You could make an argument that God has free will simply predicated on the fact that He is perfect, because not having free will would make Him imperfect.
~Jesus didn't come to make bad people good.  He came to make dead people alive~
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#23
RE: A 'proof' of God's existence - free will
I don't have to know what color the light on Central and 72nd in St Pete is to know that my cat is a dick. We don't have to know everything to know something. We don't have to know the initial conditions of the universe or the mind of god to know whether we have free will.

There are lots of things that others possess that they -could- impart to others, but that won't (and doesn't, and literally can't) certify that they have imparted those things to others. An argument for free will would not be some comment as to whether or not a god has something to give, but a demonstration that we have received that something - from a god or anything else.

Gods, after all, are said to have alot of abilities that we do not.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#24
RE: A 'proof' of God's existence - free will
So that lawyer who's advertising free wills is proof of god?

Then the free blood collections must be proof of vampires!

I knew it!!
Dying to live, living to die.
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#25
RE: A 'proof' of God's existence - free will
If a god is omniscient and knows all about the future, then that god knows all of what it will do, in that future. So the god cannot change whatever it can see in that future, both for itself, and for all of existence, (humans, aliens {to planet earth if they exist }, stars, rocks ~ whatever). So that god can have no hopes, because it knows exactly what will happen, and so, (unless it is quite an illogical god), it cannot for example hope for something 'X' to come to pass, when it knows with 100% certainty that it will not be 'X', but will be some other thing 'Y' instead.

Such a god cannot change its mind, because if it were to give a semblance of changing its mind, (perhaps to us humans), it would know that it will change its mind, (however that might be possible!!), and would be unable to not change its mind about changing its mind when the time came to "change", (or change its will, if the concept of mind makes no sense for said god). And if it could change its mind in a free will kind of sense, then it could not also be omniscient.

Thus such a god cannot be both omniscient, and have free will. So if the god of the new testament is omniscient, then it cannot have free will.

If that god does not have free will, but human beings do, then that god is not omnipotent, for we humans would have an ability, which it does not, (free will).

If humans have no free will, then the god might be super potent, but the omniscience objection to its having free will of its own still applies, its EITHER 'free will' OR 'omniscience' but not both, (isn't it?).

Of course, all of these conundrums vanish if there is no god in actual existence.

Magilla
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#26
RE: A 'proof' of God's existence - free will
(April 28, 2020 at 7:39 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote:
(April 28, 2020 at 2:14 am)cleansed Wrote: If God did not exist, there could be no free will since everything would determined by natural processes that started at the beginning of the Universe.  If the Universe could be rewound and set in motion at the same point once again it would unfold in exactly the same way every single time.  So no matter what I do I will always do what I have been predetermined to do.  I could try to somehow work against it but of course that was predetermined as well. 
That would be fatalist universe.  It's certainly true that in a fatalist universe you would either have not free will..or it wouldn't matter to outcomes if you did.  The same may be true in the real universe as well, lol.  Additionally, if it's true, then it's true regardless of the existence of any gods.
The determining factor would be in how the Universe was created.  If it was created by blind forces, then free will is impossible.  If it was created by a transcendent God, then free will is possible.
~Jesus didn't come to make bad people good.  He came to make dead people alive~
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#27
RE: A 'proof' of God's existence - free will
(May 4, 2020 at 10:54 pm)cleansed Wrote:
(April 28, 2020 at 7:39 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: That would be fatalist universe.  It's certainly true that in a fatalist universe you would either have not free will..or it wouldn't matter to outcomes if you did.  The same may be true in the real universe as well, lol.  Additionally, if it's true, then it's true regardless of the existence of any gods.
The determining factor would be in how the Universe was created.
Not between a fatalist universe and a determinist universe.  However either universe was created it would still be whatever it is.  A Fatalist universe created by a god is still a fatalist universe.  A determinist universe created by a god is still a determinist universe.  So on and so forth.
Quote:If it was created by blind forces, then free will is impossible. 

If it was created by a transcendent God, then free will is possible.
Why would that be the deciding factor?  If we live in a universe where blind forces™ created free will, then it would still be a universe where free will existed, wouldn't it?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#28
RE: A 'proof' of God's existence - free will
(May 4, 2020 at 11:12 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:
(May 4, 2020 at 10:54 pm)cleansed Wrote: The determining factor would be in how the Universe was created.
Not between a fatalist universe and a determinist universe.  However either universe was created it would still be whatever it is.  A Fatalist universe created by a god is still a fatalist universe.  A determinist universe created by a god is still a determinist universe.  So on and so forth.
Quote:If it was created by blind forces, then free will is impossible. 

If it was created by a transcendent God, then free will is possible.
Why would that be the deciding factor?  If we live in a universe where blind forces™ created free will, then it would still be a universe where free will existed, wouldn't it?
God could create a Universe either way, with or without free will.  I don't believe blind forces can create a Universe in which free will is possible.  And truth be told, I don't think blind forces can create a Universe period.  But either way I believe the only way we could have free will is if God created the Universe.  So therefore

If God does not exist free will is impossible
Free will is possible
Therefore God exists
~Jesus didn't come to make bad people good.  He came to make dead people alive~
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#29
RE: A 'proof' of God's existence - free will
(May 4, 2020 at 11:18 pm)cleansed Wrote: If God does not exist free will is impossible
Free will is possible
Therefore God exists

It's just not a very compelling argument.  It's not clear why free will would be impossible if gods did not exist, and it's not clear that we possess free will in the first place.

The only explanation you've given for either assertion is the convenience of your belief.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#30
RE: A 'proof' of God's existence - free will
You are here because you willed it so. You are here because either you believe that free will exists, or you believe that free will does not exist. Yet this belief of yours is a thought that you created, not a thought that was fed to you. You did not have such a thought at birth. You developed such thoughts because you willed it so. If free will does not exist, then we would not be here debating whether or not free will exists. Surely if our lives were predetermined, we would not feel the need to debate about it.
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