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RE: A 'proof' of God's existence - free will
May 4, 2020 at 11:54 pm
(This post was last modified: May 4, 2020 at 11:55 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
There are too many biological relationships that amount to a couple of creatures compulsively chasing each other for the above reassurance of our free will to hold water.
Maybe we would bicker endlessly about free will regardless of whether we had it. Two bots will place chess forever.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: A 'proof' of God's existence - free will
May 5, 2020 at 12:10 am
(This post was last modified: May 5, 2020 at 12:13 am by Belacqua.)
Magilla,
I think that what you're arguing here would be a difficult challenge for Bible literalists and maybe the folks at the church down the street from you. But it doesn't address the God that theologians and philosophers have written about, from Plato and Aristotle, through Anselm, Pseudo-Dionysius, up to modern mystics like Boehme and Blake. Nor is the God that atheist philosophers like Derrida, Zizek, or Badiou discuss at all like the one you describe.
Quote:If a god is omniscient and knows all about the future, then that god knows all of what it will do, in that future.
First, when theologians talk about God knowing things, this is not the same as when people know things. For me to know something, there have to be two things: me and the thing I know. If I know my friend's phone number, the phone number is separate from me.
God, however, is said to be infinite and to exclude nothing. It is existence itself, and nothing could be separate from it. Therefore God doesn't know things in the way that I do -- aware of something separate from itself.
For this long tradition, the term "omniscient," in regard to God, means that all knowledge is included in God. All knowable things are inseparable from God.
Quote: So the god cannot change whatever it can see in that future, both for itself, and for all of existence
God is said to be unchanging and impassible. That is, it couldn't possibly change. Being complete and lacking nothing, any change would be a falling-away from completion and perfection.
Quote:So that god can have no hopes, because it knows exactly what will happen, and so, (unless it is quite an illogical god), it cannot for example hope for something 'X' to come to pass, when it knows with 100% certainty that it will not be 'X', but will be some other thing 'Y' instead.
Being complete, and lacking nothing, and never changing, it would be silly to say that God has hopes.
The God that you seem to be talking about, and that a lot of people here are busy not believing in, is like Zeus or Thor -- a big powerful guy. But that's not the God that Augustine or Aquinas believed in.
Quote:If that god does not have free will, but human beings do, then that god is not omnipotent, for we humans would have an ability, which it does not, (free will).
In regard to God, "omnipotent" doesn't mean "can do anything."
The theologians are clear that God can't go against its nature, can't do evil, can't make a four-sided triangle, and many other things.
"Omnipotent," in regard to God, means that he is complete actualization without potentiality. All potencies (potentialities) are realized in God, and nothing potential can be actualized in the material world without such a fully actualized cause.
It's strange to me that so few people who discuss theology on the Internet don't know this tradition, although it's the standard view of God held by people educated in the history of ideas.
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RE: A 'proof' of God's existence - free will
May 5, 2020 at 1:45 am
(This post was last modified: May 5, 2020 at 1:46 am by The Grand Nudger.)
You've gotta wonder why somebody would get it stuck in their mind that the personal flavor of a given god would matter to people who don't believe in any gods.
That's a real ineffable mystery.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: A 'proof' of God's existence - free will
May 5, 2020 at 10:15 am
(May 5, 2020 at 12:10 am)Belacqua Wrote: God, however, is said to be infinite and to exclude nothing. It is existence itself, and nothing could be separate from it. Therefore God doesn't know things in the way that I do -- aware of something separate from itself. the bible never defines god as infinite  but defines him as existing beyond the limitations of our four dimensional universe.
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RE: A 'proof' of God's existence - free will
May 5, 2020 at 11:10 am
I've noticed the god of deism some folks describe resembles the quantum foam Stenger hypothesizes produced the universe. It doesn't know things the way we know things, but it contains the information necessary to produce a universe. Very little information required, it turns out.
For the record, the Bible never defines God as existing beyond the limitations of our four dimensional universe; it describes him as all-powerful and all-knowing.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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RE: A 'proof' of God's existence - free will
May 5, 2020 at 11:51 am
Magic book describes the character god in many, many ways. Christians who believe in magic book describe him in more ways still. Other people describe their gods in just as creative and varied a way.
Still can't fathom why it would matter what color the dragon's scales are.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: A 'proof' of God's existence - free will
May 5, 2020 at 12:42 pm
(This post was last modified: May 5, 2020 at 12:42 pm by Peebothuhlu.)
At work.
(May 5, 2020 at 11:51 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Still can't fathom why it would matter what color the dragon's scales are.
'Cause only Gold dragons can be big/fit enough queens. Duh.
Every one knows Greens are just too small and lack the stamina to properly fight thread.
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RE: A 'proof' of God's existence - free will
May 5, 2020 at 1:53 pm
(May 5, 2020 at 11:51 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Magic book describes the character god in many, many ways. Christians who believe in magic book describe him in more ways still. Other people describe their gods in just as creative and varied a way.
Still can't fathom why it would matter what color the dragon's scales are.
You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.
Tinkety Tonk and down with the Nazis.
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RE: A 'proof' of God's existence - free will
May 5, 2020 at 4:52 pm
(May 5, 2020 at 10:15 am)masoni Wrote: (May 5, 2020 at 12:10 am)Belacqua Wrote: God, however, is said to be infinite and to exclude nothing. It is existence itself, and nothing could be separate from it. Therefore God doesn't know things in the way that I do -- aware of something separate from itself. the bible never defines god as infinite but defines him as existing beyond the limitations of our four dimensional universe.
This would be relevant to sola scriptura literalists. But such people's view of things is relatively recent.
The people I'm talking about -- all the major theologians, really -- worked out their ideas of God from various arguments and sources.
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RE: A 'proof' of God's existence - free will
May 5, 2020 at 5:37 pm
(May 5, 2020 at 4:52 pm)Belacqua Wrote: (May 5, 2020 at 10:15 am)masoni Wrote: the bible never defines god as infinite but defines him as existing beyond the limitations of our four dimensional universe.
This would be relevant to sola scriptura literalists. But such people's view of things is relatively recent.
The people I'm talking about -- all the major theologians, really -- worked out their ideas of God from various arguments and sources.
So you are a WLC fanboy?
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