[Quranic Reflection]: The universe is expanding

[GrandizerII]

From what I'm reading, this "lam al tawkeed" is for emphasis, and nothing to do with time?

I checked more books on this:

Quran syntax

It's more specifically an  "2sm 7al اسم حال-situation/condition noun", connected the "verb "built" ".

And if "mouse3oon" is an "ism" (noun) does it not mean "that/those who widen" (youse3)?

I was wrong in this post, the "lam" doesn't turn the word to a verb:

Winterhold said:

That takes away the relationship to the word "فسيح" because the letter "ل" just turned the word into a verb that will happen in the future.

The correct explanation for the syntax is that It's a "situation noun" connected to the verb "built". I believe that makes more sense, this is what the books were saying as I understand.

So it goes like this -as I understand-: "the heavens were built "verb" and their situation/condition is that they are expanded by God"situation/condition noun".

Look at it this way. Instead of "mouse3oun", let's consider the word "khalikoon" instead.

Wa inna la khalikoon (if I'm doing it right) should translate to "We are the creator(s)", it doesn't mean they will continue creating into the future, only that they are [its] creator

"Mowse3oon" is a "situation noun اسم حال", it describes a state or a "situation": the situation of the heavens are the expansion by God. 
"Khalikoon" must fit into the frame of the sentence's meaning and context; it doesn't fit in this.

I remember doing i3rab back in high school in Lebanon, though wasn't connected to the Qur'an in my case. Fun times ...

Can you tell me which page where the book explains this "ism l7aal"? I don't remember this one, but do remember ism l fa3el and ism l maf3oul and such.

I do remember that, in most cases at least, when we talk about a noun with "oun" at end, it indicates plurality, not ongoing action.

[WinterHold]

I checked more books on this:

Quran syntax

It's more specifically an  "2sm 7al اسم حال-situation/condition noun", connected the "verb "built" ".


I was wrong in this post, the "lam" doesn't turn the word to a verb:

The correct explanation for the syntax is that It's a "situation noun" connected to the verb "built". I believe that makes more sense, this is what the books were saying as I understand.

So it goes like this -as I understand-: "the heavens were built "verb" and their situation/condition is that they are expanded by God"situation/condition noun".


"Mowse3oon" is a "situation noun اسم حال", it describes a state or a "situation": the situation of the heavens are the expansion by God. 
"Khalikoon" must fit into the frame of the sentence's meaning and context; it doesn't fit in this.

I remember doing i3rab back in high school in Lebanon, though wasn't connected to the Qur'an in my case. Fun times ...

Can you tell me which page where the book explains this "ism l7aal"? I don't remember this one, but do remember ism l fa3el and ism l maf3oul and such.

I do remember that, in most cases at least, when we talk about a noun with "oun" at end, it indicates plurality, not ongoing action.

Believe it or not, I hate i3rab. It needs lots of memorizing, but my grades were good in it back in school.
I didn't take "ism al 7al" in school -obviously it seems advanced-, but here is a link that mentions it in the verse discussed:

Quran e3rab

But it says it is just "7al حال", it refers to the whole sentence as "fee ma7al nasb 7al"; you can find it in the bottom of page 268.

Another link says the same that it is just "7al":

http://www.quran7m.com/searchResults/051047.html

• إعراب القرآن : وَالسَّمَاءَ بَنَيْنَاهَا بِأَيْدٍ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ
  «وَالسَّماءَ» الواو حرف استئناف والسماء منصوب على الاشتغال تقديره بنينا السماء والجملة الفعلية مستأنفة «بَنَيْناها» ماض وفاعله ومفعوله «بِأَيْدٍ» متعلقان بالفعل والجملة مفسرة للجملة المقدرة لا محل لها «وَإِنَّا» الواو حالية وإن واسمها «لَمُوسِعُونَ» اللام المزحلقة وخبر إن والجملة الاسمية حال

  
  
  

[Porcupine]

The Quran states explicitly in this verse that the universe is expanding:

Sura 51, The Quran:
https://quran.com/51/47?translations=

Sahih International
And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander.

Ignoring any dispute about whether the Quran says that the universe is expanding or not ...

... are you quite sure you're using the word explicitly correctly?

[Apistos]

The Quran states explicitly in this verse that the universe is expanding:

Oh no it so does'nt. The word actually used in the quranic verse is "sky سماء" , and the word at the end of the verse موسعون tramslated into "expanders" could also mean "broadeners" or simply "Rich and capable". The last is the one chosen by most Muslim interpreter, having nothing to do with expanding the heaven. Still, even if it wasnt, it would only mean that god made the sky breod, simply! this understanding makes much more sence when u read the verse in Arabic. Now, the next verse talks about the earth being "spread out", which is basically about the being flat. Oh yeah I know u would insists that its not about the earth being literally flatened (though this is what the word in usage ماهدون basically means) but that its looks like that from the prospective of human eye, fine, but the same way u have no right to insist that the previous passage means anything more than the sky being broad to the human eye. Dont just selectively change prospective in the next verse!

[Ibn Warraq]

what doaes it mean the word sky or heaven or in arabic "السماء" 
what is it exactly and precisely 
to talk science u should give us an accurent physical meaning associated to the word heaven in coran
is it the whole universe?
is it the atmophere of the earth ?
if u're gonna say it's the universe trying to adapting it with the cosmological concepts u'll get in many other problems with it bcz quran say that the earth was created before the heavens 
the heavens was elevated from the earth 
and that's not the cosmos at all

[WinterHold]

The Quran states explicitly in this verse that the universe is expanding:

Oh no it so does'nt. The word actually used in the quranic verse is "sky سماء" , and the word at the end of the verse موسعون tramslated into "expanders" could also mean "broadeners" or simply "Rich and capable". The last is the one chosen by most Muslim interpreter, having nothing to do with expanding the heaven. Still, even if it wasnt, it would only mean that god made the sky breod, simply! this understanding makes much more sence when u read the verse in Arabic. Now, the next verse talks about the earth being "spread out", which is basically about the being flat. Oh yeah I know u would insists that its not about the earth being literally flatened (though this is what the word in usage ماهدون basically means) but that its looks like that from the prospective of human eye, fine, but the same way u have no right to insist that the previous passage means anything more than the sky being broad to the human eye. Dont just selectively change prospective in the next verse!

No, it doesn't mean "rich and capable". The word literally mean "expander" or also "widener".
Please refer to the rich discussion I had with the member "Grandizer" on page 13 of this topic:

https://atheistforums.org/thread-61164-p...pid1986736

Also, ماهدون doesn't mean -even closely- that the earth is flattened; it means -literally- that the earth was made suitable for roads to exist.

---

what doaes it mean the word sky or heaven or in arabic "السماء" 
what is it exactly and precisely 
to talk science u should give us an accurent physical meaning associated to the word heaven in coran
is it the whole universe?
is it the atmophere of the earth ?
if u're gonna say it's the universe trying to adapting it with the cosmological concepts u'll get in many other problems with it bcz quran say that the earth was created before the heavens 
the heavens was elevated from the earth 
and that's not the cosmos at all

Please use full words in order to understand you.
But I demand you to bring the verse that says the heaven elevated from the earth.

[The Architect Of Fate]

what doaes it mean the word sky or heaven or in arabic "السماء" 
what is it exactly and precisely 
to talk science u should give us an accurent physical meaning associated to the word heaven in coran
is it the whole universe?
is it the atmophere of the earth ?
if u're gonna say it's the universe trying to adapting it with the cosmological concepts u'll get in many other problems with it bcz quran say that the earth was created before the heavens 
the heavens was elevated from the earth 
and that's not the cosmos at all

Winter deludes himself he understands his book better then anyone

---

The Quran states explicitly in this verse that the universe is expanding:

Oh no it so does'nt. The word actually used in the quranic verse is "sky سماء" , and the word at the end of the verse موسعون tramslated into "expanders" could also mean "broadeners" or simply "Rich and capable". The last is the one chosen by most Muslim interpreter, having nothing to do with expanding the heaven. Still, even if it wasnt, it would only mean that god made the sky breod, simply! this understanding makes much more sence when u read the verse in Arabic. Now, the next verse talks about the earth being "spread out", which is basically about the being flat. Oh yeah I know u would insists that its not about the earth being literally flatened (though this is what the word in usage ماهدون basically means) but that its looks like that from the prospective of human eye, fine, but the same way u have no right to insist that the previous passage means anything more than the sky being broad to the human eye. Dont just selectively change prospective in the next verse!

Winter deludes himself he understands his book better then anyone 

It's a thing you will quickly learn

[GrandizerII]

The Quran states explicitly in this verse that the universe is expanding:

and the word at the end of the verse موسعون tramslated into "expanders" could also mean "broadeners" or simply "Rich and capable". The last is the one chosen by most Muslim interpreter, having nothing to do with expanding the heaven.

I'm very skeptical of this interpretation. What source(s) are you getting this from? As someone who is fluent in Arabic, this is the first I hear of "wase3" and its derivatives having to do with richness and capability.

Personally, I suspect the verse is based on similar verses stated in the Old Testament.

[The Grand Nudger]

That's exactly where they got it, which wouldn't be an improvement. The cosmological views of the authors of the OT were pretty hilarious.

[Apistos]

No, it doesn't mean "rich and capable". The word literally mean "expander" or also "widener".

Actually it does, and it is the understanding that suits the context the most because power is mentioned.
Its mentioned in more than one commentery :

Tafseer Al-Qurtubi :
الجوهري : وأوسع الرجل أي صار ذا سعة وغنى ، ومنه قوله تعالى : والسماء بنيناها بأيد وإنا لموسعون أي أغنياء قادرون . .
https://islamweb.net/ar/library/index.ph...=2770#docu

The 2 red-colored words are :
أغنياء = Richs
قادرون = Capables
Any body could check them in a dictionary and see for themselves.


Tafseer Al-Tabari:
وقوله ( وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ ) يقول: لذو سعة بخلقها وخلق ما شئنا أن نخلقه وقدرة عليه.
Translation : by saying we are expanders, he (god) is saying that he has the capability سعة of creating them (the heavens) and creating whatever we (god) wish to creat, and hase the ability.
https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/tafseer/tabary/...tml#tabary

If you want to go even further I can bring u quotes from major Arabic-Arabic dictionaries that says the same.

So as u can see, the whole trick is about the word si3a سعة in arabic, as it could mean either "broadness" or "capability"


However, you're missing the more important point here : even if it was actually about the sky being expanded/broadened, its still has nothing to do with the univers being expanded. Sky =/= universe, its an old text talking about what every single human being ever knew : that the sky we see upon us is breod, nothing more nothing less. But you guys are just exploiting the fact that its present participle that was used there which indicates no specefic tense, so instead of interepreting the word "expanders" as "having exapanded (the sky)" you biasedly choose to interprete it as "are expanding (the universe)". but the verse only mentioned sky, so trying to get the universe involved here is just you guy's way of seeing only what u want to see. No offence, but it's not convincing unless you're biased.

And hey, this interpretation about sky being broad is also mentioned in commentires, such as ibn katheer :
وإنا لموسعون ) ، أي : قد وسعنا أرجاءها
https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/tafseer/katheer...ml#katheer

Also, ماهدون doesn't mean -even closely- that the earth is flattened; it means -literally- that the earth was made suitable for roads to exist.

Not in this context. Again, I am depending on traditional Islamic commentry here, not my personal interpretation :

All Qurtubi :
والأرض فرشناها أي بسطناها كالفراش على وجه الماء ومددناها .
فنعم الماهدون أي فنعم الماهدون نحن لهم . والمعنى في الجمع التعظيم ; مهدت الفراش مهدا بسطته ووطأته ، وتمهيد الأمور تسويتها وإصلاحها .
https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/tafseer/tabary/...tml#tabary

It is basically talking about Earth being spread out on water like a bed is spread out, this is clearley about a flat earth!

And thats not everything, the verse was even used, in other context, by Islamic scholars to prove that the earth is flat :

Al-Qurtubi : (al-hijr - 19)
قال ابن عباس : بسطناها على وجه الماء ; كما قال : والأرض بعد ذلك دحاها أي بسطها . وقال : والأرض فرشناها فنعم الماهدون . وهو يرد على من زعم أنها كالكرة 
https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/tafseer/qortobi...ml#qortobi

I'm very skeptical of this interpretation. What source(s) are you getting this from? As someone who is fluent in Arabic, this is the first I hear of "wase3" and its derivatives having to do with richness and capability.

Personally, I suspect the verse is based on similar verses stated in the Old Testament.

It is not so rare for Arabic words to a meaning that is not obviousely related to the morphological fundimental. For example : The word Jarrah جرة = jar, derives from the fundimental J-R-R just like the verb Jarra جر = To drag (past tence). Dragging has nothing to do with jars, yet they share the same fundemental in Arabic.

Now, this is a very obviouse example from Quran itself of the usage of موسعون As "rich and capable" : 
وعلى الموسع قدره و على المقتر قدره - البقرة 236