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RE: [Quranic Reflection]: The universe is expanding
August 11, 2020 at 9:37 am
(This post was last modified: August 11, 2020 at 9:40 am by Apistos.)
Quote:No, it doesn't mean "rich and capable". The word literally mean "expander" or also "widener".
Actually it does, and it is the understanding that suits the context the most because power is mentioned.
Its mentioned in more than one commentery :
Tafseer Al-Qurtubi :
الجوهري : وأوسع الرجل أي صار ذا سعة وغنى ، ومنه قوله تعالى : والسماء بنيناها بأيد وإنا لموسعون أي أغنياء قادرون . .
https://islamweb.net/ar/library/index.ph...=2770#docu
The 2 red-colored words are :
أغنياء = Richs
قادرون = Capables
Any body could check them in a dictionary and see for themselves.
Tafseer Al-Tabari:
وقوله ( وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ ) يقول: لذو سعة بخلقها وخلق ما شئنا أن نخلقه وقدرة عليه.
Translation : by saying we are expanders, he (god) is saying that he has the capability سعة of creating them (the heavens) and creating whatever we (god) wish to creat, and hase the ability.
https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/tafseer/tabary/...tml#tabary
If you want to go even further I can bring u quotes from major Arabic-Arabic dictionaries that says the same.
So as u can see, the whole trick is about the word si3a سعة in arabic, as it could mean either "broadness" or "capability"
However, you're missing the more important point here : even if it was actually about the sky being expanded/broadened, its still has nothing to do with the univers being expanded. Sky =/= universe, its an old text talking about what every single human being ever knew : that the sky we see upon us is breod, nothing more nothing less. But you guys are just exploiting the fact that its present participle that was used there which indicates no specefic tense, so instead of interepreting the word "expanders" as "having exapanded (the sky)" you biasedly choose to interprete it as "are expanding (the universe)". but the verse only mentioned sky, so trying to get the universe involved here is just you guy's way of seeing only what u want to see. No offence, but it's not convincing unless you're biased.
And hey, this interpretation about sky being broad is also mentioned in commentires, such as ibn katheer :
وإنا لموسعون ) ، أي : قد وسعنا أرجاءها
https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/tafseer/katheer...ml#katheer
Quote:Also, ماهدون doesn't mean -even closely- that the earth is flattened; it means -literally- that the earth was made suitable for roads to exist.
Not in this context. Again, I am depending on traditional Islamic commentry here, not my personal interpretation :
All Qurtubi :
والأرض فرشناها أي بسطناها كالفراش على وجه الماء ومددناها .
فنعم الماهدون أي فنعم الماهدون نحن لهم . والمعنى في الجمع التعظيم ; مهدت الفراش مهدا بسطته ووطأته ، وتمهيد الأمور تسويتها وإصلاحها .
https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/tafseer/tabary/...tml#tabary
It is basically talking about Earth being spread out on water like a bed is spread out, this is clearley about a flat earth!
And thats not everything, the verse was even used, in other context, by Islamic scholars to prove that the earth is flat :
Al-Qurtubi : (al-hijr - 19)
قال ابن عباس : بسطناها على وجه الماء ; كما قال : والأرض بعد ذلك دحاها أي بسطها . وقال : والأرض فرشناها فنعم الماهدون . وهو يرد على من زعم أنها كالكرة
https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/tafseer/qortobi...ml#qortobi
Quote:I'm very skeptical of this interpretation. What source(s) are you getting this from? As someone who is fluent in Arabic, this is the first I hear of "wase3" and its derivatives having to do with richness and capability.
It is not so rare for Arabic words to a meaning that is not obviousely related to the morphological fundimental. For example : The word Jarrah جرة = jar, derives from the fundimental J-R-R just like the verb Jarra جر = To drag (past tence). Dragging has nothing to do with jars, yet they share the same fundemental in Arabic.
Now, this is a very obviouse example from Quran itself of the usage of موسعون As "rich and capable" :
وعلى الموسع قدره و على المقتر قدره - البقرة 236
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RE: [Quranic Reflection]: The universe is expanding
August 11, 2020 at 10:38 am
(August 9, 2020 at 1:33 pm)WinterHold Wrote: (August 9, 2020 at 8:36 am)Apistos Wrote: Oh no it so does'nt. The word actually used in the quranic verse is "sky سماء" , and the word at the end of the verse موسعون tramslated into "expanders" could also mean "broadeners" or simply "Rich and capable". The last is the one chosen by most Muslim interpreter, having nothing to do with expanding the heaven. Still, even if it wasnt, it would only mean that god made the sky breod, simply! this understanding makes much more sence when u read the verse in Arabic. Now, the next verse talks about the earth being "spread out", which is basically about the being flat. Oh yeah I know u would insists that its not about the earth being literally flatened (though this is what the word in usage ماهدون basically means) but that its looks like that from the prospective of human eye, fine, but the same way u have no right to insist that the previous passage means anything more than the sky being broad to the human eye. Dont just selectively change prospective in the next verse!
No, it doesn't mean "rich and capable". The word literally mean "expander" or also "widener".
Please refer to the rich discussion I had with the member "Grandizer" on page 13 of this topic:
https://atheistforums.org/thread-61164-p...pid1986736
Also, ماهدون doesn't mean -even closely- that the earth is flattened; it means -literally- that the earth was made suitable for roads to exist.
(August 9, 2020 at 9:08 am)Ibn Warraq Wrote: what doaes it mean the word sky or heaven or in arabic "السماء"
what is it exactly and precisely
to talk science u should give us an accurent physical meaning associated to the word heaven in coran
is it the whole universe?
is it the atmophere of the earth ?
if u're gonna say it's the universe trying to adapting it with the cosmological concepts u'll get in many other problems with it bcz quran say that the earth was created before the heavens
the heavens was elevated from the earth
and that's not the cosmos at all
Please use full words in order to understand you.
But I demand you to bring the verse that says the heaven elevated from the earth. Hi Bro عليك سلام النور وما من نور إلا نور العقل فإحتكم له فهو أشد مثقالا
i'm not good in english
I'm an arab i'm good in arabic both thinking and understanding
the word heaven in quran is very disturbed in it's physical meaning and it's impossible to fix it with scientific concept as we undestood science
to prove my claims
i'll give uthe evidences in arabic
"But I demand you to bring the verse that says the heaven elevated from the earth"
اللَّهُ الَّذِي رَفَعَ السَّمَاوَاتِ بِغَيْرِ عَمَدٍ تَرَوْنَهَا ۖ ثُمَّ اسْتَوَىٰ عَلَى الْعَرْشِ ۖ وَسَخَّرَ الشَّمْسَ وَالْقَمَرَ ۖ كُلٌّ يَجْرِي لِأَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّى ۚ يُدَبِّرُ الْأَمْرَ يُفَصِّلُ الْآيَاتِ لَعَلَّكُم بِلِقَاءِ رَبِّكُمْ تُوقِنُونَ
الرعد 22
و السماء رفعها و وضع الميزان
الرحمن 7
رَفَعَ السَّمَاوَاتِ___رفعت مقابل ماذا؟؟ أليست الأرض الموجودة نعم الموجودة قبلها
نسوق لكم الدليل
خلق الأرض قبل السماء
۞ قُلْ أَئِنَّكُمْ لَتَكْفُرُونَ بِالَّذِي خَلَقَ الْأَرْضَ فِي يَوْمَيْنِ وَتَجْعَلُونَ لَهُ أَندَادًا ۚ ذَٰلِكَ رَبُّ الْعَالَمِينَ (9) وَجَعَلَ فِيهَا رَوَاسِيَ مِن فَوْقِهَا وَبَارَكَ فِيهَا وَقَدَّرَ فِيهَا أَقْوَاتَهَا فِي أَرْبَعَةِ أَيَّامٍ سَوَاءً لِّلسَّائِلِينَ (10) ثُمَّ اسْتَوَىٰ إِلَى السَّمَاءِ وَهِيَ دُخَانٌ فَقَالَ لَهَا وَلِلْأَرْضِ ائْتِيَا طَوْعًا أَوْ كَرْهًا قَالَتَا أَتَيْنَا طَائِعِين11
فَقَضَاهُنَّ سَبْعَ سَمَاوَاتٍ فِي يَوْمَيْنِ وَأَوْحَىٰ فِي كُلِّ سَمَاءٍ أَمْرَهَا ۚ وَزَيَّنَّا السَّمَاءَ الدُّنْيَا بِمَصَابِيحَ وَحِفْظًا ۚ ذَٰلِكَ تَقْدِيرُ الْعَزِيزِ الْعَلِيمِ
فصلت(12)
تفسير القرطبي
وظاهر هذه الآية يدل على أن الأرض خلقت قبل السماء . وقال في آية أخرى : أم السماء بناها ثم قال : والأرض بعد ذلك دحاها وهذا يدل على خلق السماء أولا . وقال قوم : خلقت الأرض قبل السماء ، فأما قوله : والأرض بعد ذلك دحاها فالدحو غير الخلق ، فالله خلق الأرض ثم خلق السموات ، ثم دحا الأرض أي : مدها وبسطها ، قاله ابن عباس . وقد مضى هذا المعنى مجودا في " البقرة
هُوَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ لَكُم مَّا فِي الْأَرْضِ جَمِيعًا ثُمَّ اسْتَوَىٰ إِلَى السَّمَاءِ فَسَوَّاهُنَّ سَبْعَ سَمَاوَاتٍ ۚ وَهُوَ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ
البقرة 29
تفسير إبن كثير
هذه وهذه دالتان على أن الأرض خلقت قبل السماء ، وهذا ما لا أعلم فيه نزاعا بين العلماء إلا ما نقله ابن جرير عن قتادة : أنه زعم أن السماء خلقت قبل الأرض ، وقد توقف في ذلك القرطبي في تفسيره لقوله تعالى : ( أأنتم أشد خلقا أم السماء بناها رفع سمكها فسواها وأغطش ليلها وأخرج ضحاها والأرض بعد ذلك دحاها أخرج منها ماءها ومرعاها ) [ النازعات : 27 - 31 ] قالوا : فذكر خلق السماء قبل الأرض . وفي صحيح البخاري : أن ابن عباس سئل عن هذا بعينه ، فأجاب بأن الأرض خلقت قبل السماء وأن الأرض إنما دحيت بعد خلق السماء ، وكذلك أجاب غير واحد من علماء التفسير قديما وحديثا ، وقد قررنا ذلك في تفسير سورة النازعات ، وحاصل ذلك أن الدحي مفسر بقوله : ( والأرض بعد ذلك دحاها أخرج منها ماءها ومرعاها والجبال أرساها ) [ النازعات : 30 - 32 ] ففسر الدحي بإخراج ما كان مودعا فيها بالقوة إلى الفعل لما اكتملت صورة المخلوقات الأرضية ثم السماوية دحى بعد ذلك الأرض ، فأخرجت ما كان مودعا فيها من المياه ، فنبتت النباتات على اختلاف أصنافها وصفاتها وألوانها وأشكالها ، وكذلك جرت هذه الأفلاك فدارت بما فيها من الكواكب الثوابت والسيارة ، والله سبحانه وتعالى أعلم
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RE: [Quranic Reflection]: The universe is expanding
August 11, 2020 at 10:49 am
Somebody should have told the romans that the earth had been made suitable for roads, would've saved them alot of time and effort.
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RE: [Quranic Reflection]: The universe is expanding
August 11, 2020 at 4:24 pm
(This post was last modified: August 11, 2020 at 4:34 pm by WinterHold.)
(August 11, 2020 at 9:37 am)Apistos Wrote: (August 9, 2020 at 1:33 pm)WinterHold Wrote: No, it doesn't mean "rich and capable". The word literally mean "expander" or also "widener". Actually it does, and it is the understanding that suits the context the most because power is mentioned.
Its mentioned in more than one commentery :
Tafseer Al-Qurtubi :
الجوهري : وأوسع الرجل أي صار ذا سعة وغنى ، ومنه قوله تعالى : والسماء بنيناها بأيد وإنا لموسعون أي أغنياء قادرون . .
https://islamweb.net/ar/library/index.ph...=2770#docu
The 2 red-colored words are :
أغنياء = Richs
قادرون = Capables
Any body could check them in a dictionary and see for themselves.
Tafseer Al-Tabari:
وقوله ( وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ ) يقول: لذو سعة بخلقها وخلق ما شئنا أن نخلقه وقدرة عليه.
Translation : by saying we are expanders, he (god) is saying that he has the capability سعة of creating them (the heavens) and creating whatever we (god) wish to creat, and hase the ability.
https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/tafseer/tabary/...tml#tabary
If you want to go even further I can bring u quotes from major Arabic-Arabic dictionaries that says the same.
So as u can see, the whole trick is about the word si3a سعة in arabic, as it could mean either "broadness" or "capability"
It doesn't mean "rich" unless you insert "wealth" implicitly or explicitly in the sentence. For example:
you are a person with wideness in livelihood=انت شخص ذو سعة في الرزق
but if I want to compliment you on your "wide swimming pool" I would say:
مسبحك واسع = your pool is wide !
So the word means "wide"; when somebody say "I'm the widener of this place" then it doesn't mean "rich and capable".
So again; where is the mention of either livelihood, or anything related to it in the verse?
you have a case if -and only if- the context you claim is supported by a word aiming to the direction of wealth or richness. Otherwise I am sorry; but you have nothing.
Quote:All Qurtubi :
والأرض فرشناها أي بسطناها كالفراش على وجه الماء ومددناها .
فنعم الماهدون أي فنعم الماهدون نحن لهم . والمعنى في الجمع التعظيم ; مهدت الفراش مهدا بسطته ووطأته ، وتمهيد الأمور تسويتها وإصلاحها .
https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/tafseer/tabary/...tml#tabary
It is basically talking about Earth being spread out on water like a bed is spread out, this is clearley about a flat earth!
Exactly; a person this dumb deserves to get sacked by the Mongols in Baghdad,
And thats not everything, the verse was even used, in other context, by Islamic scholars to prove that the earth is flat :
Quote:Al-Qurtubi : (al-hijr - 19)
قال ابن عباس : بسطناها على وجه الماء ; كما قال : والأرض بعد ذلك دحاها أي بسطها . وقال : والأرض فرشناها فنعم الماهدون . وهو يرد على من زعم أنها كالكرة
https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/tafseer/qortobi...ml#qortobi
[url=https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/tafseer/qortobi/sura15-aya19.html#qortobi][/url]
Translation: Ibn Abbas said: spread on the face of water; and earth afterwards got spread; and earth we have brushed and we were the best; replying to those who say earth is a ball
Quote:It is not so rare for Arabic words to a meaning that is not obviousely related to the morphological fundimental. For example : The word Jarrah جرة = jar, derives from the fundimental J-R-R just like the verb Jarra جر = To drag (past tence). Dragging has nothing to do with jars, yet they share the same fundemental in Arabic.
Now, this is a very obviouse example from Quran itself of the usage of موسعون As "rich and capable" :
وعلى الموسع قدره و على المقتر قدره - البقرة 236
As I told you above; you must have a second word to support and verify what is the "wide thing".
Explicitly; the wide thing here is the قدر
قدره=his wealth state
So the "wealth" clarified what is the "wide thing".
(August 11, 2020 at 10:38 am)Ibn Warraq Wrote: (August 9, 2020 at 1:33 pm)WinterHold Wrote: No, it doesn't mean "rich and capable". The word literally mean "expander" or also "widener".
Please refer to the rich discussion I had with the member "Grandizer" on page 13 of this topic:
https://atheistforums.org/thread-61164-p...pid1986736
Also, ماهدون doesn't mean -even closely- that the earth is flattened; it means -literally- that the earth was made suitable for roads to exist.
Please use full words in order to understand you.
But I demand you to bring the verse that says the heaven elevated from the earth. Hi Bro عليك سلام النور وما من نور إلا نور العقل فإحتكم له فهو أشد مثقالا
i'm not good in english
I'm an arab i'm good in arabic both thinking and understanding
the word heaven in quran is very disturbed in it's physical meaning and it's impossible to fix it with scientific concept as we undestood science
to prove my claims
i'll give uthe evidences in arabic...
No. This is an English forum; It is not intended to have foreign languages to discuss with, you can use other languages to support a point you already had stated in English; though.
If your English is not good, go take a course or learn online then come back.
Thank you; MK.
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RE: [Quranic Reflection]: The universe is expanding
August 11, 2020 at 4:35 pm
(August 11, 2020 at 4:24 pm)WinterHold Wrote: If your English is not good, go take a course or learn online then come back.
Thank you; MK. Did that just happen?
Winterhold aka Atlass33 just signed off as "MK"?
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RE: [Quranic Reflection]: The universe is expanding
August 11, 2020 at 4:35 pm
(This post was last modified: August 11, 2020 at 4:36 pm by WinterHold.)
and please stop copy pasting walls of text.
(August 11, 2020 at 4:35 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: (August 11, 2020 at 4:24 pm)WinterHold Wrote: If your English is not good, go take a course or learn online then come back.
Thank you; MK. Did that just happen?
Winterhold aka Atlass33 just signed off as "MK"?
The op.
Please discuss that if you have anything to say.
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RE: [Quranic Reflection]: The universe is expanding
August 11, 2020 at 4:49 pm
(August 11, 2020 at 4:35 pm)WinterHold Wrote: and please stop copy pasting walls of text.
(August 11, 2020 at 4:35 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: Did that just happen?
Winterhold aka Atlass33 just signed off as "MK"?
The op.
Please discuss that if you have anything to say.
Ok, I will.
If the Universe is expanding, AND if the Quran correctly predicted this, isn’t there room in the Universe for that apology you owe me (sorry, I don’t know the Arabic word for ‘apology’).
Boru
‘I can’t be having with this.’ - Esmeralda Weatherwax
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RE: [Quranic Reflection]: The universe is expanding
August 11, 2020 at 4:56 pm
(August 11, 2020 at 4:35 pm)WinterHold Wrote: and please stop copy pasting walls of text.
(August 11, 2020 at 4:35 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: Did that just happen?
Winterhold aka Atlass33 just signed off as "MK"?
The op.
Please discuss that if you have anything to say.
Wrong. I did not copypasta a wall of text, I quoted the relevant lines of you signing off as "MK" and wondered why that might be. Getting your internet personas confused perhaps? Because you could have explained it, whatever it is, but you instead chose to accuse ME of quoting walls of text when anyone reading can see that I did no such thing.
So why was that false accusation your goto? Why did you not explain why you signed off as "MK"?
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RE: [Quranic Reflection]: The universe is expanding
August 11, 2020 at 4:58 pm
(August 11, 2020 at 4:49 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: (August 11, 2020 at 4:35 pm)WinterHold Wrote: and please stop copy pasting walls of text.
The op.
Please discuss that if you have anything to say.
Ok, I will.
If the Universe is expanding, AND if the Quran correctly predicted this, isn’t there room in the Universe for that apology you owe me (sorry, I don’t know the Arabic word for ‘apology’).
Boru
اسف ؟ اعتذار ؟
But the context of the apology is what matters; in other words: why should I give it?
And reply in that thread to keep topics organized.
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RE: [Quranic Reflection]: The universe is expanding
August 11, 2020 at 5:04 pm
(This post was last modified: August 11, 2020 at 5:06 pm by BrianSoddingBoru4.)
(August 11, 2020 at 4:58 pm)WinterHold Wrote: (August 11, 2020 at 4:49 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Ok, I will.
If the Universe is expanding, AND if the Quran correctly predicted this, isn’t there room in the Universe for that apology you owe me (sorry, I don’t know the Arabic word for ‘apology’).
Boru
اسف ؟ اعتذار ؟
But the context of the apology is what matters; in other words: why should I give it?
And reply in that thread to keep topics organized.
You should apologize because you wrongfully accused me of being a liar. Have you no conscience? Have you no decency? Do you not have the ability to admit your mistakes?
I apologized to you for having made a false accusation in the Shoutbox. Don’t you feel I deserve similar consideration?
Boru
_____
Edit: Oh, sorry. Universe, expansion, Quran, blah blah blah. There - still on topic.
‘I can’t be having with this.’ - Esmeralda Weatherwax
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