[Quranic Reflection]: The universe is expanding

[Deesse23]

I actually stated that this is not a post-hoc;

You repeatedly claiming that you have not made a mistake doesnt mean you have made no mistake. It has been pointed out to you, specifically and repeatedly what mistake in rationalising recent knowledge into ancient writings you have made. After it being pointed out to you several times, doubling (actually its more lik eoctupling, which makes things only worse) down on your simple mistake makes you only look monumentally ignorant.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I’ve actually discovered a little known verse from the Quran that DOES point out that the universe is expanding:

‘And we have seen the heavens grow greater with time. And we will urge the heavens to lay off the pastries and switch to salads with low-cal dressing. Maybe do some crunches. Allah is bountiful and will pay for a gym membership.’

Boru

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.

  You...uhm... didn't refute anything.

You simply reposted/requoted your position.

I,  like others, have only pointed out that your current claim about the Quran is simply 'Post hoc' in its rationalization.

What I am asking you, for the last time now, is for something from the Quran that is a prediction BEFORE the event.

Is there anything in the Quran that makes a comment about the reality around us that science has not discovered yet?

If there is, great! Lets read it, learn form it and all be enlightened! 

If not... then... well...    

Not at work.

I actually stated that this is not a post-hoc; you can see the detailed explanation I made to another member -Grandizer- in this post:

https://atheistforums.org/thread-61164-p...pid1985630

I can't help you if you with Arabic more than that; but a speaker of the language can validate my response; though.

Since English is not your first language.

Once more, from the top.

You have made a claim.

Your claim is that a specific book predicted something. However, it was not talked about or commented UNTILL a field of science also made a similar statement (Many years/decades/centuries later) with information and evidence to support/demonstrate said claim.


Is the above summation a correct presentation of your position?

I am correct in understanding your comments/position?

Cheers.

[WinterHold]

At work.

I actually stated that this is not a post-hoc; you can see the detailed explanation I made to another member -Grandizer- in this post:

https://atheistforums.org/thread-61164-p...pid1985630

I can't help you if you with Arabic more than that; but a speaker of the language can validate my response; though.

Since English is not your first language.

Once more, from the top.

You have made a claim.

Your claim is that a specific book predicted something.  However, it was not talked about or commented UNTILL a field of science also made a similar statement (Many years/decades/centuries later) with information and evidence to support/demonstrate said claim.


   Is the above summation a correct presentation of your position?

I am correct in understanding your comments/position?

Cheers.

But Arabic is my first language. So here is the historic evidence that some ancient Muslim scholars "did" say what I said about this verse:

https://islamweb.net/ar/library/index.ph...50&ID=4682

وإنا لموسعون قال ابن عباس : لقادرون . وقيل : أي وإنا لذو سعة ، وبخلقها وخلق غيرها لا يضيق علينا شيء نريده . وقيل : أي وإنا لموسعون الرزق على خلقنا . عن ابن عباس أيضا . الحسن : وإنا لمطيقون . وعنه أيضا : وإنا لموسعون الرزق بالمطر . وقال الضحاك : أغنيناكم ; دليله : على الموسع قدره . وقال القتبي : ذو سعة على خلقنا . والمعنى متقارب . وقيل : جعلنا بينهما وبين الأرض سعة . الجوهري : وأوسع الرجل أي صار ذا سعة وغنى ، ومنه قوله تعالى : والسماء بنيناها بأيد وإنا لموسعون أي أغنياء قادرون . فشمل جميع الأقوال .

Translating the bold bit:

"...It was said: that we are widening through creating it and creating other heavens nothing is narrow to us."
Us = God

This is from the book of Al-Qurtubi who was born in 1214

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qurtubi

So ancient Muslims did say that the universe is expanding and even spoke about multi-verses and other universes in interpretation of the Quran.

[The Grand Nudger]

No, they didn't. Firstly, they weren't ancient, and secondly, magic book never discussed anything other than the superstitions which made up the religious beliefs of that community.

Islam is a product of the current historic age, specifically, the iron age - which we have yet to leave, though we may be in transition at present. The term ancient is used to denote things and people which predate the fall of the western roman empire in 476ad. I'll leave you to do the math on that one.

As for the other bit....well..it seems very strange to me for a person who believes that magic book was magic and that it's contents were meaningful to westernize and modernize magic book. The misguided impetus behind a believing muslim putting magic book in the position of being wrong when science inevitably revises it's view is breathtaking. That a god botherer would desire or even need the credibility of modern science, which fundamentally rejects the narrative of magic book, demonstrates the weakness of their faith and a lack of commitment towards the contents of their magic book as written. Are we to believe that you pray at the altar of big mo as you make offerings to the shrine of edwin hubble? Big mo was concerned with gods, and with heaven. Not rocks in space. The irony in the juxtaposition of those two statements is icing on the galactic cake. Magic book initially hoped to borrow a ladder from actual ancients, greeks, who really were on to something - even if it didn't have a thing to do with their wanderers.

I've got a simple question, or..at least, one which should be simple for a faithful muslim, ever being a human and believing in allah, and all that hocus pocus. Was god right, then, and you're wrong now, or are you right now, and god was wrong then? If your faith wasn't in such a state of personal and cultural decay, you probably wouldn't have to take notes on being committed to your beliefs from people who don't hold any - but here we are, and through nothing more or less than your own insistence. Let magic book be magic, and let magic book mean what it says - or, drop the pretense that magic book is magic and even could mean what it says.

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.

Since English is not your first language.

Once more, from the top.

You have made a claim.

Your claim is that a specific book predicted something.  However, it was not talked about or commented UNTILL a field of science also made a similar statement (Many years/decades/centuries later) with information and evidence to support/demonstrate said claim.


   Is the above summation a correct presentation of your position?

I am correct in understanding your comments/position?

Cheers.

But Arabic is my first language. So here is the historic evidence that some ancient Muslim scholars "did" say what I said about this verse:

https://islamweb.net/ar/library/index.ph...50&ID=4682

وإنا لموسعون قال ابن عباس : لقادرون . وقيل : أي وإنا لذو سعة ، وبخلقها وخلق غيرها لا يضيق علينا شيء نريده . وقيل : أي وإنا لموسعون الرزق على خلقنا . عن ابن عباس أيضا . الحسن : وإنا لمطيقون . وعنه أيضا : وإنا لموسعون الرزق بالمطر . وقال الضحاك : أغنيناكم ; دليله : على الموسع قدره . وقال القتبي : ذو سعة على خلقنا . والمعنى متقارب . وقيل : جعلنا بينهما وبين الأرض سعة . الجوهري : وأوسع الرجل أي صار ذا سعة وغنى ، ومنه قوله تعالى : والسماء بنيناها بأيد وإنا لموسعون أي أغنياء قادرون . فشمل جميع الأقوال .

Translating the bold bit:

"...It was said: that we are widening through creating it and creating other heavens nothing is narrow to us."
Us = God

This is from the book of Al-Qurtubi who was born in 1214

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qurtubi

So ancient Muslims did say that the universe is expanding and even spoke about multi-verses and other universes in interpretation of the Quran.

Right.

So my reply to you was correct and I am presenting your comments accurately and properly?

[Mister Agenda]

Stating something is not post-hoc does not make it not post-hoc. Presenting an English translation of the Quran published before 1929 that translated the verb as expanding would make it not post-hoc.

[WinterHold]

Stating something is not post-hoc does not make it not post-hoc. Presenting an English translation of the Quran published before 1929 that translated the verb as expanding would make it not post-hoc.

But I just did provide you with a quotation from an ancient Tafseer (interpretation) book of the Quran.
I think you are ignoring the date the author of the book was born: 1214

That's roughly about 700 years before 1929.

Links; again:

https://islamweb.net/ar/library/index.ph...50&ID=4682


This is from the book of Al-Qurtubi who was born in 1214

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qurtubi

I should also note that the multi-verse was discussed briefly according to the interpretation -which is 700 years before Hubble made his theory-.

[The Grand Nudger]

I guess that settles it. This muslim wants to convince us that the islamic god and his prophet are as ignorant as he is.

[Deesse23]

Stating something is not post-hoc does not make it not post-hoc. Presenting an English translation of the Quran published before 1929 that translated the verb as expanding would make it not post-hoc.

But I just did provide you with a quotation from an ancient Tafseer (interpretation) book of the Quran.
I think you are ignoring the date the author of the book was born: 1214

That's roughly about 700 years before 1929.

Links; again:

https://islamweb.net/ar/library/index.ph...50&ID=4682


This is from the book of Al-Qurtubi who was born in 1214

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qurtubi

I should also note that the multi-verse was discussed briefly according to the interpretation -which is 700 years before Hubble made his theory-.

How do you know the author(s) of the Quran knew what he was writing? How did you know he wasnt guessing? Giving you the benefit of doubt that al-Qurtubi knew what the author of the Quran meant and not guessing of course.

So a guy some 7-800y ago had an interpretation, a rare interpretation, (obviously many people didnt share his view in hisory), that may (or may not, since the universe isnt mentioned anywhere in the text, and no its not *obvious*, and the expansion of spacetime wasnt mentiononed too, just the *expansion of heaven[s]).

The only impressive thing about this is your ability to shoehorn current knowledge to ancient writings.

You still forgot to answer this one: What if new scientific data is going to suggest the universe is not expanding. Is the Quran wrong?