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[Serious] What God's justification for eternal torment?
RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
I apologize for getting frustrated, stuff like this grinds my gears for no reason connected to you, and, frankly, for no good reason whatsoever.

There is no punchline, I keep telling you that. If we assert some cognitive proposition, it is the nature of such propositions to be capable of being true or false. If we're careful with why we think that thing is true, those very same items that we describe will be a running list of how to prove it false, or, if we're being veeeeeeery generous, an inaccurate formulation of our beliefs logical underpinnings, assuming they have any.

I like to draw a line under all of this..and say that there are ways of talking about truth and how we determine truth that can allow for us to be right for the wrong reasons - and I tend to focus on the reasons..as these are expected to be a credible description of what a person believes to be true. So, when I say that a belief is provably false..we can still split the baby and say that..for example..theres a god, but no forge. Or, there's a god, and a forge, but gods not running it and he's doing his level best to help us get out of it. Or, theres a god and a soul forge and both are essentially like forces of nature - not moral agents to have moral responsibilities that require moral justifications.

The belief that, i suspect, is most important to you, can be unaffected by a belief that a soul forge is a moral explanation for the state of this world being false and even provably false.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
Yes I apologise as well. To be completely fair, I could have been a little more patient and careful in my replies.

Thank you for taking the time to give responses.
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RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
(December 15, 2020 at 1:45 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: You're the one who just told us that earthquakes were a demon doing random bad shit.  Heaven forfend you were being disingenuous or just plain stupid. 

I am afraid you're missing the point. The idea is not that the demon provoking earthquakes exists, or may exist, it's simply that you cannot rule it out. If you cannot rule out an alternative explanation to all evil, then your argument for the nonexistence of a benevolent god who gave us free will [because there is too much evil] no longer works.

(December 15, 2020 at 1:45 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: That has to be the cutest and quickest retraction from a batshit claim that I've ever witnessed. 

Who cares if it's batshit ? The important thing is that it dismantled the argument. A random imaginary demon that can't be excluded seems to account for all the atheist's objections to evil. That's it. The logical problem of evil... is no longer a problem.

I really don't understand what's so compelling about this problem. It clearly isn't a problem for any theist believing that God gave us free will. Maybe it's a more serious one for christians, who consider God an all-loving deity , that loves them so much it died for their sins [and condemns some of them to eternal punishment at the same time]

(December 15, 2020 at 1:45 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Human beings also disagree on the answer to 2+2.  Disagreement is not an argument against objectivity or for a god.  It's not even a credible suggestion on it's own grounds.  People disagree -with- gods, and in a universe in which god exists, allegedly.

Okay. If all human beings agree on what 2 and + stand for, then there should be no disagreement about 2+2, if someone disagrees nonetheless, then he is demonstrably mistaken. I should've been more carful with the word disagreement, as it should only entail, in this context, the kind of disagreement that can't be settled by a simple appeal to logical rules.

Not the same thing can be said about moral issues, good and evil are hard to define, unless one copies some verse from some scripture doing so. As a result there are many controversial issues that people will never agree on such as abortion, homosexuality, emancipation of women, etc.
It's true that there are some moral golden rules out there, but again, what makes them authoritative ?

(December 15, 2020 at 1:45 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Though, at the end of the day I agree with you, for things to be right or wrong there must be some moral authority, and that moral authority can't be swayed one way or another by a moral agents existence or it's own moral disagreement with that authority.  Your god is an asshole, or there are asshole demons your god can't handle (or maybe earthquakes don't have anything to do with gods or demons)...hardly matters to me, doesn't matter at all to objective moral claims.

And now you have a new problem, what moral authority to pick. If this absolute moral agent doesn't exist, then clearly there is no exemplary moral code to follow. And one might simply adopt his country's criminal law, for example, as the list of good/bad actions. But again, criminal law changes from one country to another.

I'm not sure what you're driving at, though, mentioning demons and earthquakes. You don't seem to understand the point of invoking the imaginary demon. Again, it clearly shows that atheist's attempt to disprove the existence of a three omni god based on evil is a non sequitur.
Qur'anic revelation is the sole path to ultimate reality. All argumentation and philosophy is an expression of arrogance and an overestimation of human cognitive ability. 

"But believe me, Cleanthes, the most natural feeling that a well-disposed mind will have on this occasion is a longing desire and expectation that God will be pleased to remove or at least to lessen this profound ignorance, by giving mankind some particular revelation, revealing the nature, attributes, and operations of the divine object of our faith." (Hume's Dialogues)


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RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
(December 15, 2020 at 5:11 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: I am afraid you're missing the point. The idea is not that the demon provoking earthquakes exists, or may exist, it's simply that you cannot rule it out. If you cannot rule out an alternative explanation to all evil, then your argument for the nonexistence of a benevolent god who gave us free will [because there is too much evil] no longer works.
Sure I can rule it out, and have.  You can only be describing some problem that you have.

Quote:Okay. If all human beings agree on what 2 and + stand for, then there should be no disagreement about 2+2, if someone disagrees nonetheless, then he is demonstrably mistaken. I should've been more carful with the word disagreement, as it should only entail, in this context, the kind of disagreement that can't be settled by a simple appeal to logical rules.

Not the same thing can be said about moral issues, good and evil are hard to define, unless one copies some verse from some scripture doing so. As a result there are many controversial issues that people will never agree on such as abortion, homosexuality, emancipation of women, etc.
It's true that there are some moral golden rules out there, but again, what makes them authoritative ?
If we can't say the same thing about moral issues, then moral issues aren't issues that people can be demonstrably mistaken about.  You are, again, appealing to disagreement, and it's no more successful this time than the last..or, the next..I'm sure. 

Assuming that there were a right answer to a moral question, an answer that people could be demonstrably right or wrong about, people will still disagree.  

Quote:And now you have a new problem, what moral authority to pick. If this absolute moral agent doesn't exist, then clearly there is no exemplary moral code to follow. And one might simply adopt his country's criminal law, for example, as the list of good/bad actions. But again, criminal law changes from one country to another.

I'm not sure what you're driving at, though, mentioning demons and earthquakes. You don't seem to understand the point of invoking the imaginary demon. Again, it clearly shows that atheist's attempt to disprove the existence of a three omni god based on evil is a non sequitur.
Sounds like another you problem, not my problem.    I'm not a relativist,  there's no wrong to bob, or wrong to steve, or wrong to allah, or wrong to jill for me to choose between.  There's just whether something is right, or wrong.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
(December 15, 2020 at 1:06 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: If one accepts there is evil, then he accepts, implicitly, that there is goodness, and matter doesn't know good and evil, a moral agent must exist !

If the moral agent of which you speak is part of man's net consciousness, then that is a concept behind which I could rally. After all, what we consider to be the evil of men has tended to show that they lack the inner morals other people possess.

As soon as you assign a deific sentience to this moral agent, that is when you have deviated from our scientific reality to perform on the playground of religious delusion.
[Image: mtfbwyf.jpg]
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RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
At work.


(December 15, 2020 at 1:06 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: If one accepts there is evil, then he accepts, implicitly, that there is goodness, and matter doesn't know good and evil, a moral agent must exist !


"If on accepts there is Strawberry, then they accept, implicitly, that there is Vanilla, and matter does not know Strawberry and Vanilla, a tasting agent must exist!"

The answer, of course, is actually Chocolate.

Coffee
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RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
(December 15, 2020 at 5:29 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Sure I can rule it out, and have.  You can only be describing some problem that you have.

No, you cannot. If you could, you would've given some deductive argument doing so.

(December 15, 2020 at 5:29 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: If we can't say the same thing about moral issues, then moral issues aren't issues that people can be demonstrably mistaken about.  You are, again, appealing to disagreement, and it's no more successful this time than the last..or, the next..I'm sure.

Yes, I am appealing to disagreement. Because there is disagreement over the definitions of good and evil. There cannot be an objective list of good/bad moral deeds in the absence of an absolute moral authority. I think you already conceaded this point, the latter has to be there, we just disagree on what it is.

(December 15, 2020 at 5:29 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Sounds like another you problem, not my problem.    I'm not a relativist,  there's no wrong to bob, or wrong to steve, or wrong to allah, or wrong to jill for me to choose between.  There's just whether something is right, or wrong.

I know, you are a moral realist. And I already showed you the flaw of your position: you are simply begging the question of right and wrong. Something is considered right, according to moral realism, if it is .... right.
Qur'anic revelation is the sole path to ultimate reality. All argumentation and philosophy is an expression of arrogance and an overestimation of human cognitive ability. 

"But believe me, Cleanthes, the most natural feeling that a well-disposed mind will have on this occasion is a longing desire and expectation that God will be pleased to remove or at least to lessen this profound ignorance, by giving mankind some particular revelation, revealing the nature, attributes, and operations of the divine object of our faith." (Hume's Dialogues)


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RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
(December 17, 2020 at 4:24 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: No, you cannot. If you could, you would've given some deductive argument doing so.
So tedious.  OFC I can, but it seems a bit pointless to argue as much with a person who thinks that we can't rule demons out as the cause of earthqaukes.  Obviously, if we handled the subject of knowledge in anything even approaching a similar way..you wouldn't wonder how a routine dismissal like that happens.

Quote:Yes, I am appealing to disagreement. Because there is disagreement over the definitions of good and evil. There cannot be an objective list of good/bad moral deeds in the absence of an absolute moral authority. I think you already conceaded this point, the latter has to be there, we just disagree on what it is.
Moral absolutism and moral objectivism aren't the same thing..but why would I expect the guy who can't rule out earthqauke demons to know that, either?

Quote:I know, you are a moral realist. And I already showed you the flaw of your position: you are simply begging the question of right and wrong. Something is considered right, according to moral realism, if it is .... right.
If you think that moral realism is wrong, that's fine.   You don't have any kind of moral authority, let alone an absolute moral authority, nor does your god, if moral realism is false. Here again, I;d suggest that you have a you problem. I'm doing fine.

At any rate, lets put down identifying a logical fallacy as another thing you suck at. All moral positions are positions on right and wrong. To say that a moral position calls something right, or something wrong, is merely restating that it is a moral position, not begging the question. On that count, the experience of moral content is a brute fact. All positions on morality attempt to account for that fact - even those that deny the reality of moral intuition. Meanwhile, in actual moral realism, a moral statement (good or bad) is considered to be true insomuch as the statement purports to report facts, and gets those facts right. False if it purports to report facts, and does not, or gets those facts wrong.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
(December 17, 2020 at 11:20 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: So tedious.  OFC I can, but it seems a bit pointless to argue as much with a person who thinks that we can't rule demons out as the cause of earthqaukes.  Obviously, if we handled the subject of knowledge in anything even approaching a similar way..you wouldn't wonder how a routine dismissal like that happens.

You didn't get it, did you ? The idea of a supernatural agent accounting for natural evil is not mine, by the way, it's plantinga's famous solution to the logical problem of evil. So, as you see, your "routine dismissals" ignored a full argument of a professional philosopher, which you think isn't worth discussing. Stop ignoring arguments and don't let your ego get in the way next time

Pathetic.

(December 17, 2020 at 11:20 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: If you think that moral realism is wrong, that's fine.   You don't have any kind of moral authority, let alone an absolute moral authority, nor does your god, if moral realism is false.  Here again, I;d suggest that you have a you problem.  I'm doing fine.

Where did I ever claim I have moral authority, Wth are you talking about.?

(December 17, 2020 at 11:20 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Meanwhile, in actual moral realism, a moral statement (good or bad) is considered to be true insomuch as the statement purports to report facts, and gets those facts right.  False if it purports to report facts, and does not, or gets those facts wrong.

And if a god actually exists, he has more access to facts than you do, and obviously gets them right. God's moral statements must be more accurate than ours, then, isn't it?
Qur'anic revelation is the sole path to ultimate reality. All argumentation and philosophy is an expression of arrogance and an overestimation of human cognitive ability. 

"But believe me, Cleanthes, the most natural feeling that a well-disposed mind will have on this occasion is a longing desire and expectation that God will be pleased to remove or at least to lessen this profound ignorance, by giving mankind some particular revelation, revealing the nature, attributes, and operations of the divine object of our faith." (Hume's Dialogues)


Reply
RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
(December 18, 2020 at 3:31 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: You didn't get it, did you ? The idea of a supernatural agent accounting for natural evil is not mine, by the way, it's plantinga's famous solution to the logical problem of evil. So, as you see, your "routine dismissals" ignored a full argument of a professional philosopher, which you think isn't worth discussing. Stop ignoring arguments and don't let your ego get in the way next time

Pathetic.
Isn't worth discussing with you, more accurately.  

Quote:Where did I ever claim I have moral authority, Wth are you talking about.?
As above, most of this isn't going to be a productive discussion between us - your moral authority would be whatever moral authority you thought were true.  If moral realism is false, then moral authority cannot be true.  That's the claim that moral realism makes.  That at least some moral statements are true.

Quote:And if a god actually exists, he has more access to facts than you do, and obviously gets them right. God's moral statements must be more accurate than ours, then, isn't it?

That's one of those strange assumptions that we make about gods, particularly in light of the contents of their magic books..but supposing a god did have more access to facts than I did, and moral realism were false - then that greater access to facts doesn't matter.  

Assuming that a god had greater access to facts, and moral realism were true, then the moral authority is whatever set of facts a god defers to in it's moral assessment.

Gods are as useless and irrelevant to moral realism, the position that some moral statements are true, as demons are to earthqaukes - an absurdly childish expression of the limits of your own epistemology.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply



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