Christchurch mosque shootings: the heartbreaking hearing

[Angrboda]

If WinterHold were the only example of a Muslim that I had, I'd have a pretty shitty view of Islam.

[Anomalocaris]

But then he doesn’t need to have any redeeming qualities to be far from the worst of Muslims.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

You can't have a serious discussion about the subject if you can't tell it apart from any pile of other bad things.

I’m getting the impression that he either 1) doesn’t want Islamist terrorism mentioned at all, or 2) he wants everyone to discuss Western terrorism ONLY as a method of excusing the Islamist variety. 

I formally decline to participate in such nonsense, and will continue with my already stated position that ALL terrorists are bad guys.

Boru

[The Grand Nudger]

We observe that the single greatest factor in the willingness to kill is a belief in the assent of society. This cuts across all ideological boundaries. A white supremacist becomes a killer when they come to believe that what they're doing will be accepted just the same way that an islamist does - which is why so much of conditioning can appear to the victim as positive messaging.

It takes some effort to get people to kill, and contrary to common supposition, the people groomed to this sort of shit aren't the worst people, in the bottom percentage (that we imagine might be easier to compel to killing - which is also untrue, but deserves mention). Alot of reasons for this, but the two most salient reasons boil down to the willingness of the victim to submit to an authority structure, and their ability to be unnoticed.

They want good boys who do what they're told and don't stand out and believe that they're part of a larger movement of beneficial change. It starts to become crystal clear why domestic terrorists are the real issue of concern when you think about it practically.

This is where it turns back on itself - because the picture of the ideal candidate for grooming is very different from our picture of the end product - and we imagine that some profound change must have happened -in- that person to go from what they were to where they are when we finally notice them - but that's usually not the case. Killing already had the assent of society within some boundary. Conditioning doesn't work by creating new pathologies. We should never be surprised, or assume that Bad™ is involved, when a person from a society that does extend assent to killing, kills. That this phenomena can be described as bad people doing bad things. That's not what it is. It's good people, selected for those units of conceptual goodness that have practical utility to killing.

Voltaire had it right - those that can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
-The great replacement, absurd...but if you believed it - what would the appropriate course of action be?
-The great satan, absurd...but if you believed it - what would the appropriate course of action be?

I don't think that most people are entirely honest with themselves when they condemn terrorism. That's as much a rote behavior as the things grommers exploit (though I appreciate you have some additional experience compared to others)

It's complicated, or one bad plate of shrimp - whichever comes first.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

You may have a point. Most of the terrorists of my acquaintance have been business owners, cabbies, barmen, etc, which speaks to their ability to go unnoticed.

Sorry, but I can’t truly get my head round that these are ‘good people doing bad things’. I’ll accept that they were once good people who now do bad things, but they’ve become bad people, precisely because they’ve been groomed as you mention. 

Society condones killing to an extent, of course, but only to an extent. I doubt very much that any significant part of a relevant society looks at the killing of a child from a PIRA-planted bomb and thinks secretly ‘Well done, lads.’

And while I don’t doubt that terrorist bombers, snipers, arsonists, think of themselves as ‘good’ people, that’s really not a useful  metric - no one (apart from a very short list of true sociopaths) thinks of themselves as evil.

Boru

[The Valkyrie]

You may have a point. Most of the terrorists of my acquaintance have been business owners, cabbies, barmen, etc, which speaks to their ability to go unnoticed.

Sorry, but I can’t truly get my head round that these are ‘good people doing bad things’. I’ll accept that they were once good people who now do bad things, but they’ve become bad people, precisely because they’ve been groomed as you mention. 

Society condones killing to an extent, of course, but only to an extent. I doubt very much that any significant part of a relevant society looks at the killing of a child from a PIRA-planted bomb and thinks secretly ‘Well done, lads.’

And while I don’t doubt that terrorist bombers, snipers, arsonists, think of themselves as ‘good’ people, that’s really not a useful  metric - no one (apart from a very short list of true sociopaths) thinks of themselves as evil.

Boru

I'm not sure they would consider themselves "good" people. More like "necessary" people.

They see whatever they do as necessary "for the cause", whatever their actions.

I could be wrong, of course.

[The Grand Nudger]

You may have a point. Most of the terrorists of my acquaintance have been business owners, cabbies, barmen, etc, which speaks to their ability to go unnoticed.

Sorry, but I can’t truly get my head round that these are ‘good people doing bad things’. I’ll accept that they were once good people who now do bad things, but they’ve become bad people, precisely because they’ve been groomed as you mention. 

Society condones killing to an extent, of course, but only to an extent. I doubt very much that any significant part of a relevant society looks at the killing of a child from a PIRA-planted bomb and thinks secretly ‘Well done, lads.’

And while I don’t doubt that terrorist bombers, snipers, arsonists, think of themselves as ‘good’ people, that’s really not a useful  metric - no one (apart from a very short list of true sociopaths) thinks of themselves as evil.

Boru

Some significant part does, and that enables the act.  While no one thinks of themselves as evil - I  would suggest we see further - to conceive of ways that people could act the way that they do without, in any sense, actually being evil.  If they were evil, truly evil, we wouldn't have as much trouble as we do spotting them before the fact. It's a very useful metric, because understanding what legitimate concerns draw people to illegitimate responses is something that we -have- to understand, and truly grapple with...if...we want to reduce the rate of incidence.

It's truly concerning, for example, that both white supremacy and islamism lead to the same outcome. The death of the impure.

[WinterHold]

You can't have a serious discussion about the subject if you can't tell it apart from any pile of other bad things.

I’m getting the impression that he either 1) doesn’t want Islamist terrorism mentioned at all, or 2) he wants everyone to discuss Western terrorism ONLY as a method of excusing the Islamist variety. 

I formally decline to participate in such nonsense, and will continue with my already stated position that ALL terrorists are bad guys.

Boru

The topic is not about Islamic terrorism, but about non-Muslim terrorism influenced by severe Islamophobia. Thus mentioning anything else is just blowing dust in the reader's eyes so they look away.

---

1 far-right non-Muslim terrorist killed 50 people, including children -intentionally-:

Before the hearing, Abdul Aziz Wahabzadah, who fought off Tarrant at the Linwood Islamic Center, said in a telephone interview that it was important for him to be in court on Monday to see the attacker whom he managed to frighten away, saving lives in the process.

“He came and killed all the innocent women and children with a gun, but when his turn came [for a beating], he ran away like a coward,” Wahabzadah said.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/brenton-tarrant-sentence-new-zealand-mosque-attack-christchurch/2020/08/23/abd51832-e10c-11ea-82d8-5e55d47e90ca_story.html

St. John Ambulance sent 20 ambulances and other vehicles to the mosques.[217] Most of the wounded were taken to Christchurch Hospital. Forty-eight people with gunshot wounds, including young children, were treated at the hospital,[218][219


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christchur..._shootings

Looking at a child in the eyes then shoot them is what I mean.
Then you go back in history and look at what non-Muslims did to Africans enslaving them, then you look how America was emptied from all its natives to understand what I mean by the poor comparison between Islamic terrorism and non-Muslim terrorism.

Now; back to the OP.

[Angrboda]

We return you now to your regularly scheduled bullshit.

[The Architect Of Fate]

Looking at a child in the eyes then shoot them is what I mean.

Muslims kill children all the time 

Then you go back in history and look at what non-Muslims did to Africans enslaving them,

Muslims enslaved tons of Africans 

then you look how America was emptied from all its natives 

Again speaking as a native . We were not "emptied ". In fact there are more of us now then ever , And most natives were killed by disease not conflict . 

to understand what I mean by the poor comparison between Islamic terrorism and non-Muslim terrorism.

Accept it isn't poor 

Now; back to the OP.

He never left it