Question about "faith"

[Angrboda]

I see. I disagree with the premise of the question. Faith is not for believing in God's existence; faith is for trusting God after you believe he exists. That is how faith is used in Scripture. As far as the Christian is concerned, the proposer is God, his proposition is salvation, and his merits include the crucifixion. Faith, therefore, is trust in God with regards to forgiveness, deliverance from temptation, etc.

How you come to believe in God's existence is entirely dissociated from faith and dependent on you. I assume that for most people, personal experience, evidence, teachings, culture, or argumentation played a role in that belief. In the Bible stories at least, people come to believe after some miracle, sign, or divine appearance.

Do these people who came to belief through experience, etc, have first-hand observation of the divine, or do they trust or have faith in others, such as the authors of the bible?

[possibletarian]

I see. I disagree with the premise of the question. Faith is not for believing in God's existence; faith is for trusting God after you believe he exists. That is how faith is used in Scripture. As far as the Christian is concerned, the proposer is God, his proposition is salvation, and his merits include the crucifixion. Faith, therefore, is trust in God with regards to forgiveness, deliverance from temptation, etc.

Okay, i understand that.

How you come to believe in God's existence is entirely dissociated from faith and dependent on you. I assume that for most people, personal experience, evidence, teachings, culture, or argumentation played a role in that belief. In the Bible stories at least, people come to believe after some miracle, sign, or divine appearance.

Most of these are just things written in a collection of books, how do you jump from that to believing your experiences are a miracle, a divine sign etc ?

[John 6IX Breezy]

Do these people who came to belief through experience, etc, have first-hand observation of the divine, or do they trust or have faith in others, such as the authors of the bible?

I think the Bible more precisely falls into the divine category. By that I mean it isn't an independent resource whose propositions you must trust in order to believe God exists. You have to first be convinced of it's legitimacy before you have faith in it. Keep in mind Scripture is the Word of God for the Christian. As such, God is the proposer, Scripture is the proposition, and faith emerges from that:

"Faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." (1 Timothy 1:4)

But I'm sure there are individuals who read scripture and it appeals to their reason; it is self-evident in that sense. As for people's experiences, I suspect it is a spectrum. Ranging from those who believe they have had direct interaction with the divine, down to those who simply found religion to work in their personal life, it gives positive results.

[The Grand Nudger]

You already trust it before you have faith? Sounds like faith and trust might not be the same thing.

[John 6IX Breezy]

Incorrect.

[Sal]

Do these people who came to belief through experience, etc, have first-hand observation of the divine, or do they trust or have faith in others, such as the authors of the bible?

I think the Bible more precisely falls into the divine category. By that I mean it isn't an independent resource whose propositions you must trust in order to believe God exists. You have to first be convinced of it's legitimacy before you have faith in it. Keep in mind Scripture is the Word of God for the Christian. As such, God is the proposer, Scripture is the proposition, and faith emerges from that:

"Faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." (1 Timothy 1:4)

But I'm sure there are individuals who read scripture and it appeals to their reason; it is self-evident in that sense. As for people's experiences, I suspect it is a spectrum. Ranging from those who believe they have had direct interaction with the divine, down to those who simply found religion to work in their personal life, it gives positive results.

If a god, from scripture, was so noble and good and did everything in his power to help and guide his people, in such a way that they led good, productable lives and had overall positive societal results, it would be true and a god to follow?

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This exists in modern times.

Let me present you, Superman. A noble, good, powerful Being, as recorded by DC comics of His nature and exploits, that He helped, guided and by being a role model inspired humanity to be on their best behavior, don'tca know.



...

Oh? You don't have faith in Superman? I guess you have to just trust the Holy Scriptures of DC comics first, then, to come around. He is such a good Being, how can't you have faith in Superman? He's a source of great inspiration and good behavior of His faithful, sure this is proof enough of His existence, right? Their faith guides them on the Path of Righteousness and exemplary lives. Clearly living a heretical life and not believing in Superman makes the life of these atheists miserable without the guiding light of Superman.

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You see, I don't believe in the Christian god because I don't have faith in god, that's not the reason. My cognitive abilities are beyond and above faith itself. Faith is often presented as this, in my POV, as this sort of ability to "see" as in "a sense" into a unique realm. It's quite the opposite. The old canard analogy of a dark room is often used when comparing philosophy, metaphysics, theology and science, each an attempt looking for a black cat - but I think this illustrates the point, albeit crudely.

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[John 6IX Breezy]

No; you don't just trust the Bible and call it a day. As I've said before: Faith is trust in a God you already believe exists, not a method for believing he exists, nor a reason for thinking he is good. Faith is trusting your doctor because she has credentials, not a method for believing she has credentials.

Only after you know Superman is real and the DC comics are reliable can you have faith/trust in either.

Is that your question?

[Sal]

No; you don't just trust the Bible and call it a day. As I've said before: Faith is trust in a God you already believe exists, not a method for believing he exists, nor a reason for thinking he is good. Faith is trusting your doctor because she has credentials, not a method for believing she has credentials.

Only after you know Superman is real and the DC comics are reliable can you have faith/trust in either.

Is that your question?

No.

That's not at all what I'm getting at. It's a question on psychology. Especially cognitive ability. Of how the mind, and ultimately the brain, functions. It's about the systemic structure in the mind on faith.

Faith is a lot more than what people usually realize, and apostates feel this intuitively, of what faith does. It's difficult for me to convey how it works, like how it's difficult to describe colors to a blind man. For all the explanations of colors, like what wavelength red is seen in compared to blue, there is a certain qualia that is impossible to convey. They have to experience these colors themself when or if they can see. What I'm trying to convey is that faith is like a blindfold.

Admittedly, to build on the assumption inherent in this analogy, some never see faith for what it is, or simply go through life unable to because their eyes have been entirely removed. Tell me, how would you know there was something wrong, that something was missing in your Experience? Remember, you do not know if you're wearing a blindfold or not, because you've never Experienced vision at any point in your life. It's an Experience without comparison, like colors for an actual blind man. You would have no frame of reference. And how could you? You. Do. Not. See.

Seeing what faith is, IMO, is analogically similar as examining a blindfold after you've removed it from your field of vision and able to see the blindfold itself with your own eyes and Experiencing sight for the first time. Disorientating at first, since you don't even have a frame of reference for color.

I'm intentionally being poetic about it, because when I finally became an apostate, it was a profound Experience just realizing there wasn't some disembodied mind of a deity aware of my thoughts. There was also loss, because in the same regard, all those prayers, all those pleas and other communiques I grew up with evaporated. I still remember them, sure, but I Experience those memories differently now; I was just talking with myself, thinking I was communicating with a god. It took me 4 years to accept that heaven and hell don't exist and can't be proven to exist either, and a host of other emotional & "rational" baggage that I had to let go of.

...

Do you know the historical account of Phineas Gage? Check it out, it's a physical analog of what I'm trying to convey. But instead of actual effects of brain damage, what I'm attempting to describe is that - for all its dualistic properties ascribed to minds and bodies - faith is a type of "brain damage" in this regard, but for minds.

[sdelsolray]

Read the story. They expressed abandonment at Moses' absence, not a sense of insufficient evidence. To the contrary, they built the calf to make sense of that evidence and thus referred to it as the god who took them out of Egypt lol:

"Come, make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don’t know what has happened to him [...] Then they said, 'these are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt” (Exodus 32:1).

And how do you know that this story is anything other than a work of fiction?

He has [religious] faith that the story is true. I suspect he believes all those stories (in the Bible) are true.

[Rahn127]

Ok, so you believe that (X) exists.

Let's pick one thing that you believe (X) can do.
Because if it can't do anything, then it's indistinguishable from something that doesn't exist.

You trust that (X) can do this one thing.

How do we test for that ?
How do we test that (X) is doing this thing you believe it can do ?