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December 1, 2020 at 10:04 am (This post was last modified: December 1, 2020 at 10:04 am by Greatest I am.)
(November 30, 2020 at 11:58 pm)ronedee Wrote:
(November 30, 2020 at 4:04 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: If you really believe this, then lets chat about the morality or immorality of Yahweh punishing the innocent instead of the guilty and calling that justice.
Christians always run from moral discussions, but I feel you need it badly, given you adoring a genocidal prick of a god and all.
On Jesus dying for Christians. Try to think in a moral way.
It takes quite an inflated ego to think a god would actually die for us, after condemning us unjustly in the first place.
Christians have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil they make Jesus to keep their feel good get out of hell free card.
It is a lie, first and foremost, because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.
To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.
Christians also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.
Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:
There is no way that Christians would teach their children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are promoting doing just that.
Jesus is just a smidge less immoral than his demiurge genocidal father, and here you are trying to put him as low in moral fiber as Yahweh. Tsk tsk.
Regards
DL
You speak as if God is a human, and you stand in Judgement of His morality. What you fail to realize, and conceptualize is that God makes the rules! Not us. Everything has to be seen through that prism. Unfortunately for you, and many others, that is not possible. So we can't ever connect. Nor should we! We're too far apart.
To try to explain it in terms that you'd understand.... Revelation is achieved through three things: Inner peace, spiritual acceptance, and imagination. I won't explain this foundation further, as I've experienced with others like you, you are already formulating a negative attitude. And I don't like wasting my time. I'd much rather talk to an openminded individual. The only reason I'm engaging with you is that you seem to be the only intelligent being here today.
First off...lets put the "story of Job", to bed! That is a hypothetical story written in the 7th century or so, and is based in theodicy. No more. Not reality in any stretch of the imagination. Even in the epic proportions of the OT. It's in the bible, in my opinion to make people feel better about themselves and frightened of God!
So, let's think like God....shall we?
Gen 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.
If God the Father shared in culpability by putting the tree in the garden, in front of Adam & Eve.... Thus the Lord accepting His part in revealing the ugly truth to them. As bad as Evil is, it’s still part of the Truth!
And the last part of said scripture, (Gen 3:22) points to Jesus on the cross (tree) and His last supper pronouncement, “I am the Bread of Life”.
Also, Jesus is God in the flesh! Period.... "from the foundations of the world"! The Alpha & Omega. Transcending time, space and matter.
Did we (humans, through Adam & Eve) steal from God in the Garden? Was the Tree of Knowledge, God’s knowledge? Was God trying to protect us?
It also seems obvious (to me) that ONLY God can reverse His curse on man of, sin and death; “but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in [the day] that you eat of it, you shall surely die.” Notice, He didn't say "IF"?
We had no way to redeem ourselves, or take back what we did. And we’ll sin again and again, and AGAIN! We can’t be PERFECT! We “know” too much! And we reject God, because of His..."morality".
No. the only way was to break His own curse by dying in the flesh Himself. An injustice that reconciled us to Him. He paid the price for putting that tree of knowledge in front of us! By His death, the curse fell. Because, death was only meant for sinners. Now death is only a door!
Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Wow. Deflect much? You speak as if Gods are not human, and you stand in judgement of them and the morality shown, by you is immoral, --- as you honor a genocidal prick.
What you fail to realize, and conceptualize is that God makes the rules in the bible, but the bible is written by us, therefore, we create the gods and give them our morals, or lack thereof in Yahweh's case, and his vile followers.
If we are going to chat, use logos and not your really vile mythos unless you treat your myth as a myth.
The laws in heaven cannot apply on earth, so don't try to make them work.
You speak as if God is a human, and you stand in Judgement of His morality. What you fail to realize, and conceptualize is that God makes the rules! Not us. Everything has to be seen through that prism. Unfortunately for you, and many others, that is not possible. So we can't ever connect. Nor should we! We're too far apart.
To try to explain it in terms that you'd understand.... Revelation is achieved through three things: Inner peace, spiritual acceptance, and imagination. I won't explain this foundation further, as I've experienced with others like you, you are already formulating a negative attitude. And I don't like wasting my time. I'd much rather talk to an openminded individual. The only reason I'm engaging with you is that you seem to be the only intelligent being here today.
First off...lets put the "story of Job", to bed! That is a hypothetical story written in the 7th century or so, and is based in theodicy. No more. Not reality in any stretch of the imagination. Even in the epic proportions of the OT. It's in the bible, in my opinion to make people feel better about themselves and frightened of God!
So, let's think like God....shall we?
Gen 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.
If God the Father shared in culpability by putting the tree in the garden, in front of Adam & Eve.... Thus the Lord accepting His part in revealing the ugly truth to them. As bad as Evil is, it’s still part of the Truth!
And the last part of said scripture, (Gen 3:22) points to Jesus on the cross (tree) and His last supper pronouncement, “I am the Bread of Life”.
Also, Jesus is God in the flesh! Period.... "from the foundations of the world"! The Alpha & Omega. Transcending time, space and matter.
Did we (humans, through Adam & Eve) steal from God in the Garden? Was the Tree of Knowledge, God’s knowledge? Was God trying to protect us?
It also seems obvious (to me) that ONLY God can reverse His curse on man of, sin and death; “but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in [the day] that you eat of it, you shall surely die.” Notice, He didn't say "IF"?
We had no way to redeem ourselves, or take back what we did. And we’ll sin again and again, and AGAIN! We can’t be PERFECT! We “know” too much! And we reject God, because of His..."morality".
No. the only way was to break His own curse by dying in the flesh Himself. An injustice that reconciled us to Him. He paid the price for putting that tree of knowledge in front of us! By His death, the curse fell. Because, death was only meant for sinners. Now death is only a door!
Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
It's clear you're off your rocker.
A god that never makes itself known to me in life will have to answer to me if by some chance he does exist.
It is also very clear that you have the imagination available to believe in that which doesn't exist. Children tend to outgrow such things, but not theists.
Oh, a book says something and you agree with it. Go figure. Lots of books say lots of things. I imagine you're choosing the bible in which to believe because you're a gullible little twit with no common sense.
"Never trust a fox. Looks like a dog, behaves like a cat."
~ Erin Hunter
(November 30, 2020 at 11:58 pm)ronedee Wrote: lets put the "story of Job", to bed! That is a hypothetical story written in the 7th century or so, and is based in theodicy. No more. Not reality in any stretch of the imagination.
[...]
If God the Father shared in culpability by putting the tree in the garden, in front of Adam & Eve.... Thus the Lord accepting His part in revealing the ugly truth to them. As bad as Evil is, it’s still part of the Truth!
Yeah, The Book of Job is a fairytale, but Adam and Eve, that really happened.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
December 3, 2020 at 8:11 pm (This post was last modified: December 3, 2020 at 8:14 pm by ronedee.)
(December 2, 2020 at 10:53 pm)Fake Messiah Wrote:
(November 30, 2020 at 11:58 pm)ronedee Wrote: lets put the "story of Job", to bed! That is a hypothetical story written in the 7th century or so, and is based in theodicy. No more. Not reality in any stretch of the imagination.
[...]
If God the Father shared in culpability by putting the tree in the garden, in front of Adam & Eve.... Thus the Lord accepting His part in revealing the ugly truth to them. As bad as Evil is, it’s still part of the Truth!
Yeah, The Book of Job is a fairytale, but Adam and Eve, that really happened.
See. It's total waste of time engaging in any conversation. None of you are open to anything. And it has nothing to do with the mechanisms of whether God exits or not!
You all speak like I've never been in this arena before. In the 20 or more years I've dealt with you, as well as my atheist family and friends the same
theme becomes apparent...... it's not convenient for any of you to have a God.
It comes down to this: "I will not serve." Good for you!
As much as that statement hurts...... I'd rather hear that truth than all your lame arguments against a Creator. And your baseless faith that we all just popped
into existence from Primordial soup of the cosmos!
(December 2, 2020 at 10:53 pm)Fake Messiah Wrote: Yeah, The Book of Job is a fairytale, but Adam and Eve, that really happened.
See. It's total waste of time engaging in any conversation. None of you are open to anything. And it has nothing to do with whether God exits or not!
You all speak like I've never been in this arena before. In the 20 or more years I've dealt with you, as well as my atheist family and friends the same
theme becomes apparent...... it's not convenient for any of you to have a God.
It comes down to this: "I will not serve." Good for you!
As much as that statement hurts...... I'd rather hear that truth than all your lame arguments against a Creator. And your baseless faith that we all just popped
into existence from Primordial soup of the cosmos!
Bold mine - Another theist who "knows" how all atheists think.
December 3, 2020 at 8:46 pm (This post was last modified: December 3, 2020 at 8:47 pm by The Architect Of Fate.)
Quote:See. It's total waste of time engaging in any conversation. None of you are open to anything. And it has nothing to do with whether God exits or not!
Nah, You simply came here to preach and peddle lame apologist arguments, And now that your lame bag of tricks has failed you. You blame us.
Quote:You all speak like I've never been in this arena before.
You clearly are at the very least out of practice and at the most really bad at this.
Quote: In the 20 or more years I've dealt with you, as well as my atheist family and friends the same
Clearly 20 years of failure and ignorance.
Quote:the theme becomes apparent...... it's not convenient for any of you to have a God.
Nah' That's the lame excuse you use to pardon your failures
Quote:It comes down to this: "I will not serve." Good for you!
Nope, that's an excuse you have conjured in your head so you can blame us for your inability to defend your beliefs.
Quote:As much as that statement hurts...... I'd rather hear that truth than all your lame arguments against a Creator. And your baseless faith that we all just popped into existence from Primordial soup of the cosmos!
You have heard the truth . You simply won't accept it because doing so would mean having to accept your failure as an apologist, And we can add ignorance of science and the inability to distinguish atheism for any particular theory within it.
(December 3, 2020 at 8:14 pm)arewethereyet Wrote:
(December 3, 2020 at 8:11 pm)ronedee Wrote: See. It's total waste of time engaging in any conversation. None of you are open to anything. And it has nothing to do with whether God exits or not!
You all speak like I've never been in this arena before. In the 20 or more years I've dealt with you, as well as my atheist family and friends the same
theme becomes apparent...... it's not convenient for any of you to have a God.
It comes down to this: "I will not serve." Good for you!
As much as that statement hurts...... I'd rather hear that truth than all your lame arguments against a Creator. And your baseless faith that we all just popped
into existence from Primordial soup of the cosmos!
Bold mine - Another theist who "knows" how all atheists think.
What would we do without them?
Mind readers, One and all
"Change was inevitable"
Nemo sicut deus debet esse!
“No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?” –SHIRLEY CHISHOLM
(December 3, 2020 at 8:11 pm)ronedee Wrote: See. It's total waste of time engaging in any conversation. None of you are open to anything. And it has nothing to do with whether God exits or not!
You all speak like I've never been in this arena before. In the 20 or more years I've dealt with you, as well as my atheist family and friends the same
theme becomes apparent...... it's not convenient for any of you to have a God.
It comes down to this: "I will not serve." Good for you!
As much as that statement hurts...... I'd rather hear that truth than all your lame arguments against a Creator. And your baseless faith that we all just popped
into existence from Primordial soup of the cosmos!
Bold mine - Another theist who "knows" how all atheists think.
(December 3, 2020 at 8:52 pm)ronedee Wrote: None of you are very hard to figure out.
Rave on.
I have to give you this.... at least you can communicate ideas in direct logical comments. Unlike your ilk who try to look
intelligent by dissecting my sentences and interjecting their tired regurgitated atheist-speak.
December 3, 2020 at 9:27 pm (This post was last modified: December 3, 2020 at 9:50 pm by The Architect Of Fate.)
Quote:None of you are very hard to figure out.
Apparently we are. As you have managed to get every single thing about us wrong
Quote:I have to give you this.... at least you can communicate ideas in direct logical comments.
Nah, we all can. Your just too dense to see it.
Quote:Unlike your ilk who try to look
intelligent by dissecting my sentences and interjecting their tired regurgitated atheist-speak.
Nah that would be you and your ilk who try to look intelligent by mindlessly repeating tired apologist talking points like a parrot.
"Change was inevitable"
Nemo sicut deus debet esse!
“No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?” –SHIRLEY CHISHOLM
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