(November 30, 2020 at 2:37 am)ronedee Wrote:

(November 30, 2020 at 2:35 am)SUNGULA Wrote: 1. Most of them are made up or at the very least heavily mythologized 

2.The mere existence of a problem implies a less optimal world. If God creates the world then no else can be blamed for its sub-optimal state. This of course assumes god is real something I don't accept, And of course, we are to blame for our problems and we have to solve them. We have no other option in a godless universe. 

3. We have no reason to do as you suggest and every reason to do the contrary 


4.A barbaric blood sacrifice pays for nothing let alone the collective suffering of all of humanity 


5.Freewill does not get your god off the hook. There is no contradiction between a world without evil or evil acts and one with freewill. God if he existed didn't create such a world. So no he bears the blame.

So to sum up 

If God creates a bad world he is responsible for its badness 
If God does not solve the issue he is responsible for that decision 
A Blood Sacrifice is not a solution 
We have no reason to follow your advice 
Freewill and a world without evil are not contradictory 

Overall your Theodicy is bad 

One uneducated opinion.

Next!

Aren't you charming?

I'm sure you will convince a whole lot of people that you the one with all the truths.

Nitwit.

(November 30, 2020 at 2:05 am)ronedee Wrote:

(October 3, 2020 at 8:41 am)Eleven Wrote: He hated his human creations so much that he drowned them all, thinking only one family was worthy of a second go via incest.

He hated us so much, that he preferred joining forces with the devil to torture poor Job.

He hates us so much that he allows the devil to live when he has no problems allowing children to starve, be raped, and die of cancer.

That is not a loving god. That is a monster.

It's interesting and humorous that you atheists think all the stories of the bible are made-up. Yet you are right there blasting them as actual events.

As for Theodicy? Evil exists. And God is the only way around it. Unfortunately, no one (especially here) invokes God for help. No, we (yes even me, 
sometimes) prefer to solve things ourselves....or blame someone else (aka God) for them, when we can't solve them. We forget that most all 
of our problems are caused by US!

Fortunately, there is a "Way"! Jesus. It's basically submitting to the, "Will of God". Accepting Him. Trusting Him. Loving Him...and each other. 

He paid the price for everything that YOU blamed Him for. And His "human creation" put Him to death for all those things and more!

Don't keep crucifying Him! Believe that the debt has been paid. He conquered evil for us, and death is now just a door. We can all choose to be divine 
children of God! Rather than perpetuating the lie that "everything is His fault"! 

Yes, we were given a Life. And we have free will. Let's use it for good, not evil. Love, not hate. And understand that many things we criticize God for is 
collectively in our power to remedy, or avoid. And what is not; is left to God's Will and Power to trust in.

John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Amen

Your propaganda is bad and you should feel bad about that.

Boru

(November 25, 2020 at 3:09 pm)Prycejosh1987 Wrote:

(October 3, 2020 at 8:41 am)Eleven Wrote: He hated his human creations so much that he drowned them all, thinking only one family was worthy of a second go via incest.

He hated us so much, that he preferred joining forces with the devil to torture poor Job.

He hates us so much that he allows the devil to live when he has no problems allowing children to starve, be raped, and die of cancer.

That is not a loving god. That is a monster.

How funny is that, your saying that God should not be just or judge righteously. If God wasnt just or fair, and people didnt have to use faith then, people would walk all over Him. He himself knows that, that is why He put certain things in place. Hell, heaven, judgement for all who believer, those who dont believe, manifested evil, His promises, etc. This is all to show He cares and to see the need for him. You also have to see the reason why God does these things, look at context. 

Job for example was blessed twice as much in every area, in the end, God let Satan test God, for Job to be an example to us all. He let Satan test Job to solidify Satan disgust and hatred towards God and humans. He let Job to be tested for him to explain Himself in the bible. Etc. There are tons and tons of things i could say about Job and his story.

He let Satan test Job to solidify Satan disgust and hatred towards God and humans. 

Satan, being less of a mass murderer than Yahweh, was wise in solidifying her hatred toward a vile mass murderer who like to pull the wings off of Job for the fun of it.

I myself hate the immoral people who glorify a genocidal god.

I also hate all those who love Hitler and Stalin etc.

What do you find compelling in the genocidal? Why do you adore a mass murderer who kills when he could just as easily cure?

Moral people want to know how the immoral think.

Regards
DL

---

(November 30, 2020 at 2:05 am)ronedee Wrote:

(October 3, 2020 at 8:41 am)Eleven Wrote: He hated his human creations so much that he drowned them all, thinking only one family was worthy of a second go via incest.

He hated us so much, that he preferred joining forces with the devil to torture poor Job.

He hates us so much that he allows the devil to live when he has no problems allowing children to starve, be raped, and die of cancer.

That is not a loving god. That is a monster.

It's interesting and humorous that you atheists think all the stories of the bible are made-up. Yet you are right there blasting them as actual events.

As for Theodicy? Evil exists. And God is the only way around it. Unfortunately, no one (especially here) invokes God for help. No, we (yes even me, 
sometimes) prefer to solve things ourselves....or blame someone else (aka God) for them, when we can't solve them. We forget that most all 
of our problems are caused by US!

Fortunately, there is a "Way"! Jesus. It's basically submitting to the, "Will of God". Accepting Him. Trusting Him. Loving Him...and each other. 

He paid the price for everything that YOU blamed Him for. And His "human creation" put Him to death for all those things and more!

Don't keep crucifying Him! Believe that the debt has been paid. He conquered evil for us, and death is now just a door. We can all choose to be divine 
children of God! Rather than perpetuating the lie that "everything is His fault"! 

Yes, we were given a Life. And we have free will. Let's use it for good, not evil. Love, not hate. And understand that many things we criticize God for is 
collectively in our power to remedy, or avoid. And what is not; is left to God's Will and Power to trust in.

John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Amen

"As for Theodicy? Evil exists. And God is the only way around it."

This in not my view as I do not have a problem of evil and FMPOV, there is no conflict between god and nature on this issue. Evolution forces us to compete and thus do what others will see as evil against them. This aside as you are not ready to think.


You might wonder why Christians sing of Adam's sin being a happy fault and necessary to Yahweh's plan.

Would you do as Adam did or would you derail Yahweh's plan?

As to your last. Have you ever looked at your view from a moral perspective? Not likely or you would see how vile your belief is. 

On Jesus dying for Christians. Try to think in a moral way.
 
It takes quite an  inflated ego to think a god would actually die for us, after condemning us unjustly in the first place.
 
Christians have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil they make Jesus to keep their feel good get out of hell free card.
 
It is a lie, first and foremost, because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.
 
To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.
 
Christians also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.
 
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
 
Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.
 
Psa 49;7  None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:
 
There is no way that Christians would teach their children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are promoting doing just that.
 
Jesus is just a smidge less immoral than his demiurge genocidal father, and here you are trying to put him as low in moral fiber as Yahweh. Tsk tsk.

Regards
DL

(November 30, 2020 at 3:40 pm)Greatest I am Wrote:

(November 25, 2020 at 3:09 pm)Prycejosh1987 Wrote: How funny is that, your saying that God should not be just or judge righteously. If God wasnt just or fair, and people didnt have to use faith then, people would walk all over Him. He himself knows that, that is why He put certain things in place. Hell, heaven, judgement for all who believer, those who dont believe, manifested evil, His promises, etc. This is all to show He cares and to see the need for him. You also have to see the reason why God does these things, look at context. 

Job for example was blessed twice as much in every area, in the end, God let Satan test God, for Job to be an example to us all. He let Satan test Job to solidify Satan disgust and hatred towards God and humans. He let Job to be tested for him to explain Himself in the bible. Etc. There are tons and tons of things i could say about Job and his story.

He let Satan test Job to solidify Satan disgust and hatred towards God and humans. 

Satan, being less of a mass murderer than Yahweh, was wise in solidifying her hatred toward a vile mass murderer who like to pull the wings off of Job for the fun of it.

I myself hate the immoral people who glorify a genocidal god.

I also hate all those who love Hitler and Stalin etc.

What do you find compelling in the genocidal? Why do you adore a mass murderer who kills when he could just as easily cure?

Moral people want to know how the immoral think.

Regards
DL

---

I'm curious.  You refer to Satan as "her".  May I ask why?  I haven't heard of Satan being female before.  
No, I'm not being sarcastic...I find this interesting.

(November 30, 2020 at 2:37 am)ronedee Wrote:

(November 30, 2020 at 2:35 am)SUNGULA Wrote: 1. Most of them are made up or at the very least heavily mythologized 

2.The mere existence of a problem implies a less optimal world. If God creates the world then no else can be blamed for its sub-optimal state. This of course assumes god is real something I don't accept, And of course, we are to blame for our problems and we have to solve them. We have no other option in a godless universe. 

3. We have no reason to do as you suggest and every reason to do the contrary 


4.A barbaric blood sacrifice pays for nothing let alone the collective suffering of all of humanity 


5.Freewill does not get your god off the hook. There is no contradiction between a world without evil or evil acts and one with freewill. God if he existed didn't create such a world. So no he bears the blame.

So to sum up 

If God creates a bad world he is responsible for its badness 
If God does not solve the issue he is responsible for that decision 
A Blood Sacrifice is not a solution 
We have no reason to follow your advice 
Freewill and a world without evil are not contradictory 

Overall your Theodicy is bad 

One uneducated opinion.

Next!

If you really believe this, then lets chat about the morality or immorality of Yahweh punishing the innocent instead of the guilty and calling that justice.

Christians always run from moral discussions, but I feel you need it badly, given you adoring a genocidal prick of a god and all.

On Jesus dying for Christians. Try to think in a moral way.
 
It takes quite an  inflated ego to think a god would actually die for us, after condemning us unjustly in the first place.
 
Christians have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil they make Jesus to keep their feel good get out of hell free card.
 
It is a lie, first and foremost, because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.
 
To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.
 
Christians also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.
 
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
 
Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.
 
Psa 49;7  None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:
 
There is no way that Christians would teach their children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are promoting doing just that.
 
Jesus is just a smidge less immoral than his demiurge genocidal father, and here you are trying to put him as low in moral fiber as Yahweh. Tsk tsk.

Regards
DL

---

(November 30, 2020 at 3:58 pm)arewethereyet Wrote:

(November 30, 2020 at 3:40 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: He let Satan test Job to solidify Satan disgust and hatred towards God and humans. 

Satan, being less of a mass murderer than Yahweh, was wise in solidifying her hatred toward a vile mass murderer who like to pull the wings off of Job for the fun of it.

I myself hate the immoral people who glorify a genocidal god.

I also hate all those who love Hitler and Stalin etc.

What do you find compelling in the genocidal? Why do you adore a mass murderer who kills when he could just as easily cure?

Moral people want to know how the immoral think.

Regards
DL

---

I'm curious.  You refer to Satan as "her".  May I ask why?  I haven't heard of Satan being female before.  
No, I'm not being sarcastic...I find this interesting.

I see it as a given in scriptures as women, to it, are the epitome of evil. Just read on how it bad mouths women. He will rule over you, men over women, in in Gen 3. Women are also told to not dare try to teach men anything in the temple.

Have a look at this picture and tell us if you see Satan, with those breasts, as a male or female?

 https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:...den_00.jpg

If that is not enough, I have quotes from prominent Christians that show women as lower than the low.

As you look at that famous painting, do not turn Eve's head back to it's former position. It is too suggestive as to why they were expelled.

Regards
DL

(November 30, 2020 at 4:04 pm)Greatest I am Wrote:

(November 30, 2020 at 2:37 am)ronedee Wrote: One uneducated opinion.

Next!

If you really believe this, then lets chat about the morality or immorality of Yahweh punishing the innocent instead of the guilty and calling that justice.

Christians always run from moral discussions, but I feel you need it badly, given you adoring a genocidal prick of a god and all.

On Jesus dying for Christians. Try to think in a moral way.
 
It takes quite an  inflated ego to think a god would actually die for us, after condemning us unjustly in the first place.
 
Christians have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil they make Jesus to keep their feel good get out of hell free card.
 
It is a lie, first and foremost, because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.
 
To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.
 
Christians also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.
 
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
 
Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.
 
Psa 49;7  None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:
 
There is no way that Christians would teach their children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are promoting doing just that.
 
Jesus is just a smidge less immoral than his demiurge genocidal father, and here you are trying to put him as low in moral fiber as Yahweh. Tsk tsk.

Regards
DL

---

(November 30, 2020 at 3:58 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: I'm curious.  You refer to Satan as "her".  May I ask why?  I haven't heard of Satan being female before.  
No, I'm not being sarcastic...I find this interesting.

I see it as a given in scriptures as women, to it, are the epitome of evil. Just read on how it bad mouths women. He will rule over you, men over women, in in Gen 3. Women are also told to not dare try to teach men anything in the temple.

Have a look at this picture and tell us if you see Satan, with those breasts, as a male or female?

 https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:...den_00.jpg

If that is not enough, I have quotes from prominent Christians that show women as lower than the low.

As you look at that famous painting, do not turn Eve's head back to it's former position. It is too suggestive as to why they were expelled.

Regards
DL

Thank you for answering.  I will mull this over for a while.

(November 30, 2020 at 3:58 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: I'm curious.  You refer to Satan as "her".  May I ask why?  I haven't heard of Satan being female before.  
No, I'm not being sarcastic...I find this interesting.

As an aside.

I do not have a problem of evil, be you think evil from some god or nature, nor do I disagree that women are the root of all human to human evil. You cannot help it and get a bum rap for it by those who do not understand our evolution.

That evil is natural and a small part of the greater good of our continuing evolution.

Here is a longer explanation, should you be interested. It was written for a Christian.

-----------

Eve was correct in eating of the tree of knowledge and rejecting God.
 
It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.
           
1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
 
This indicates that Jesus had no choice.
 
If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?
 
God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.
 
This then begs the question.
 
What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?
 
Only an insane and immoral God. That’s who.
 
The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.
 
One of Christianity's highest form of immorality is what they have done to women. They have denied them equality and subjugated them to men.
 
------------------------
 
Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.
 
That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."
 
But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.
 
If all sin by nature, then the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin. That being the case, for God to punish us for following the instincts and natures he put in us would be quite wrong.
 
 
Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."
 
 
Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.
 
 Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.
 
Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.
 
Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.
 
Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.
 
This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.
 
Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us.
 
There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.
 
Regards
DL 
 
-----------------------
Evolutionary theology.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXOvYn1OAL0&list=UUDXjzOeZRqLxhYaaEhWLb_A&index=9
 

---

Thanks. I hope you notice my last longer bit.

I find it strange that even Christian women do not seen to recognize how harmful their misogynous religions are or how ancient men actually though of them as chattel.

Modern Christians are not much better, from a moral POV.

Regards
DL

(November 30, 2020 at 4:04 pm)Greatest I am Wrote:

(November 30, 2020 at 2:37 am)ronedee Wrote: One uneducated opinion.

Next!

If you really believe this, then lets chat about the morality or immorality of Yahweh punishing the innocent instead of the guilty and calling that justice.

Christians always run from moral discussions, but I feel you need it badly, given you adoring a genocidal prick of a god and all.

On Jesus dying for Christians. Try to think in a moral way.
 
It takes quite an  inflated ego to think a god would actually die for us, after condemning us unjustly in the first place.
 
Christians have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil they make Jesus to keep their feel good get out of hell free card.
 
It is a lie, first and foremost, because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.
 
To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.
 
Christians also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.
 
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
 
Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.
 
Psa 49;7  None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:
 
There is no way that Christians would teach their children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are promoting doing just that.
 
Jesus is just a smidge less immoral than his demiurge genocidal father, and here you are trying to put him as low in moral fiber as Yahweh. Tsk tsk.

Regards
DL

You speak as if God is a human, and you stand in Judgement of His morality. What you fail to realize, and conceptualize is that God makes the rules! Not us. Everything has to be seen through that prism. Unfortunately for you, and many others, that is not possible. So we can't ever connect. Nor should we! We're too far apart.

To try to explain it in terms that you'd understand.... Revelation is achieved through three things: Inner peace, spiritual acceptance, and imagination. I won't explain this foundation further, as I've experienced with others like you, you are already formulating a negative attitude. And I don't like wasting my time. I'd much rather talk to an openminded individual. The only reason I'm engaging with you is that you seem to be the only intelligent being here today.

First off...lets put the "story of Job", to bed! That is a hypothetical story written in the 7th century or so, and is based in theodicy. No more. Not reality in any stretch of the imagination. Even in the epic proportions of the OT. It's in the bible, in my opinion to make people feel better about themselves and frightened of God!

So, let's think like God....shall we?

Gen 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.


If God the Father shared in culpability by putting the tree in the garden, in front of Adam & Eve.... Thus the Lord accepting His part in revealing the ugly truth to them. As bad as Evil is, it’s still part of the Truth! 

And the last part of said scripture, (Gen 3:22) points to Jesus on the cross (tree) and His last supper pronouncement, “I am the Bread of Life”.

Also, Jesus is God in the flesh! Period.... "from the foundations of the world"! The Alpha & Omega. Transcending time, space and matter.

Did we (humans, through Adam & Eve) steal from God in the Garden? Was the Tree of Knowledge, God’s knowledge? Was God trying to protect us? 

It also seems obvious (to me) that ONLY God can reverse His curse on man of, sin and death; “but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in [the day] that you eat of it, you shall surely die.”  Notice, He didn't say "IF"? 

We had no way to redeem ourselves, or take back what we did. And we’ll sin again and again, and AGAIN! We can’t be PERFECT! We “know” too much! And we reject God, because of His..."morality".

No. the only way was to break His own curse by dying in the flesh Himself. An injustice that reconciled us to Him. He paid the price for putting
that tree of knowledge in front of us! By His death, the curse fell. Because, death was only meant for sinners. Now death is only a door!

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

(November 30, 2020 at 2:05 am)ronedee Wrote: Unfortunately, no one (especially here) invokes God for help. No, we (yes even me,
sometimes) prefer to solve things ourselves....or blame someone else (aka God) for them, when we can't solve them. We forget that most all
of our problems are caused by US!

Fortunately, there is a "Way"! Jesus. It's basically submitting to the, "Will of God". Accepting Him. Trusting Him. Loving Him...and each other.

Most of our problems are caused by us? So when an earthquake happens and kills 300k people in an instant how is it our fault? And how would accepting Jesus helped us? Or when a 3-year-old gets brain cancer how is it our fault?

It's good to know that you don't believe in your own bullshit ronee, judging by the way you live your day to day.

Does make it seem more than a little bit silly to try to inflict it on others, in that case. Maybe get back to us when you, the allegedly believing christian, can manage to summon up the courage of your own claimed convictions?