Jesus plan AND Obama's fault

[Minimalist]

The funny thing there, Rayaan, is that you don't need any god at all to do that.

If you subtract the magical from your equation it still functions perfectly.

[coffeeveritas]

I don't know about all of the people excited by martyrdom, but for the people who knew them it was sad. They were genuinely good people who were willing to risk their lives to help others. I actually know a lot of people that knew them and I was standing outside during the memorial service. The Christians I know reacted like you would think anyone else would, they miss their friends. It was a tragedy, so we mourn with each other and we try to help each other rebuild. Depending on your worldview, there's a lot of ways to rationalize what happened, whether you think it's just the way things are, or that there's some sort of a plan, or that human beings have a way of messing things up, but in the end we are just people who have to face the darkest side of what it means to be human. I think that is something we should all respect, because we've all been there.

[reverendjeremiah]

I'd have to be God to know what His plans are.

Areed, omniscience is for deities.

God knows what I'm going to do,

He new what you were going to do hundreds of years before you were born. Allah new his religion was going to split along tribal lines and cause many blood feuds, yet he allowed them to happen. If Allah didnt want Wahabists and Shiites to be fighting each other, he would not have allowed the split. The split happened. So either Allah WANTS the blood feuds, or he doesnt exist Or maybe Jehovah the Jewish God wanted your tribes to split and make war with each other to punish you for not worshipping the one true god. Or maybe Thor hates Arabs and Persian and laughs at their futile blood wars.

but this does not mean that He compels me to do something

Really? Didnt you just say you had to be god to know his plans? Yet you say you know his plans for you. Tell me how you know that? You just came up with it on the spot huh? If Allah knows everything before it happens, and he knows something he doesnt like is going to happen, then why does he allow it to happen anyways? Freewill? How can freewill exist when there is an all powerful, all knowing being? It cant. Do you mean by freewill I can do something against Allahs plan? No? He already knew it. If you mean by freewill I can do things that god didnt foresee? Then your god is not all knowing nor all powerful if you can catch Allah by suprise, nor is his plan a good plan if us mere mortals can screw it up so easily. If you mean by freewill that Allah allows people to choose their path, be it evil or good.. then explain why a rapists free will to rape is more important to Allah than the victims freewill NOT to be raped? Allah knew that person was going to be raped and brutally murdered yet still let it happen? Then your Allah is a Demon who deserves to be rediculed and dispised as malevolent. If I was all powerful and all knowing, and stood by while your wife was gang raped and murdered, and refused to tell the police where the culprits were..would you love me and worship me, or would you dispise me? No. Freewill is something that can only exist in a godless cosmos.

nor does He take away my free will in performing such an action.

So you can sneak up on Allah and startle him? If not then freewill doesnt exist. Can I comfound Allahs plans to punish the infidel? If not then freewill doesnt exist. Can I eat pork and drink a beer without Allah knowing about it? Then freewill doesnt exist, or allah doesnt exist. Does Allah have freewill? Is he allowed to change his mind and write another Quran, with another prophet?

I don't even *know* what God knows about my actions.

but you *know* that he doesnt control your actions. Make up your mind..either you do or do not know what Allah knows.

Therefore, I cannot possibly blame or attribute all my actions to God instead of myself.

What a horrible argument. If Allah is all powerful and existed he could do whatever he wanted. You havent the slightest clue. For all you know he snapped his finger and made those machine guns shoot those Christian missionaries just for some laughs, just so he could toss a few more children into his fiery torture chamber. Maybe Thor made those pirates shoot the missionaries so he can keep the Christians and Muslims killing each other as punishment for thinking he is a myth. You dont know SQUAT, and for someone who claims to live by faith you seem to not grasp its meaning. Faith meaning YOU DO NOT KNOW, but you believe on faith, which means anything could happen. What will you do if you find out Allah wrote the quran just to mislead people, and that Scientology is the right path that makes Allah happy..what are you going to do? Protest to an all powerful being that he broke his promise and fooled you? Are you going to cry foul to a power higher than Allah for justice?

Now do you see why deities are absurd?

What all powerful deity would allow so many millions of false religions to exist and compete with his? What all powerful deity would allow people freewill to fool people away from his path and then get angry at them for being fooled and torture them forever in fire? A malevolent, cruel demon. The fact that you actually hold this concept of Allah up as the source of goodness and justice KNOWING FULL WELL that this same being tortures people in fire for eternity is a stain on your integrity and propensity to even be trusted on your decision making for what constitutes benevolence. For all you know ALL of the Gods and Goddesses known by man exist. For all you know the native americans may have been correct. For all you know the god of mischief Loki has invented all of the worlds religions just to get his kicks. For all you know that "Allah" feeling you get when you have your religious moments is nothing more than a deception by Satan so that you will spend eternity with him in the flames..

Now do you see why EVERY deitiy and religion is absurd?

[Rayaan]

Too many hard questions there. Maybe I could've answered them if I had 0.000001% of Allah's wisdom at least, but I don't. You win.

[Violet]

This was clear proof that Allah was supporting the pirates.

I don't believe it, but proof it indeed is.

And global warming is caused by the number of pirates going down. Really, I have proof.

[Zen Badger]

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http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?156456-P...&p=2021722

This is a thread on Rapture Ready about the missionaries who were killed by Somali pirates. Many of them are thrilled that there fellow Christians were martyred and say that it is all part of Gods mysterious plan. Some also blame Obama for the pirate attack instead of the pirates who did the murdering.

Here are some quotes

-carol1948

It is so amazing how our God works. These people had been serving our Lord in this way since 2004 and I had never heard of them. Now, the Lord takes them home and the whole world hears of them and their/His work. Even as we are saddened by this occurrence we know that it is our LORD'S perfect will and timing. And we pray too that their families be comforted as only our LORD can comfort.

and then this one:

- Acts5:41

I hope I get killed for Jesus.

We don't know what they endured, or might have had they lived. Right now they're in Heaven, wearing a martyrs crown, living Revelation 21:4.

Not only that, but people like me are going to be even more determined to hand out as many Bibles as possible.

and then this one:

-WVBORN56

Sean Hannity was just talking about this a few minutes ago on he TV show on Fox. He made the statement had this occured under President Reagan the Somalian ship would have been blown out of the water and wondered why in the 21st century why do we still have pirates. He said under Reagan it was peace thru strength and under Obama it is peace thru weakness. The worlds nations do as they please without fear of repercussion under this President. He has set our foreign policy back a hundred years.

---

My questions are: How can they say it is all part of gods plan, but blame Obama for it happening? How can they get mad at Obama who had nothing to do with it, but praise a god who actually could have stopped it? Why are they mad at Obama and not at god? If it is gods plan, then Obama had no choice but to do as god commanded, and if that is true then why is Obama being blamed and not god? How does freewill and gods plan fit into this discussion without contradicting each other?

You're expecting reasoned logical behaviour from these people?

Come now RJ, I thought you knew better than that.

[reverendjeremiah]

Too many hard questions there. Maybe I could've answered them if I had 0.000001% of Allah's wisdom at least, but I don't. You win.

I win? That means you agree that worshipping allah is rediculous and will stop worshipping it? Or when you say "you win" it really means "you asked me questions I cant answer that make sense, but I will just ignore them and go about my merry way"?

[Minimalist]

They were genuinely good people who were willing to risk their lives to help others.

Helping others? Or merely sticking their bullshit religion into a place dominated by another bullshit religion.

Maybe we need a whole thread to talk about the motivations of "missionaries?"

[coffeeveritas]

They were genuinely good people who were willing to risk their lives to help others.

Helping others? Or merely sticking their bullshit religion into a place dominated by another bullshit religion.

Maybe we need a whole thread to talk about the motivations of "missionaries?"

Well, regardless of whether you think that helping people spiritually counts as helping them, that's what they felt they were doing. That's what I meant by "good people," they just wanted to help people. Also keep in mind that most of what they did was deliver Bibles to remote congregations that wanted them. The people were already Christians and it meant a lot to them to have their own Bible to read. We take things like books for granted here, but people in some the places they went would walk ten to twenty miles just to get a Bible. A lot of poorer schools use them to teach children to read because it was the only book they had. I know a lot of people have this dogmatic, Bible-thumping image in their heads of missionaries, but most modern-day missionaries serve in areas where there is already a decent-sized Christian presence or even in villages that are entirely Christian. Most missionaries are there doing practical things, like being doctors or English teachers or providing care for orphans, and they are still called missionaries even if they never hand out a single track or "witness" to anybody.

There's a saying that a lot of missionaries live by, "preach the gospel, use words if necessary." It means that they believe that if they just help people out of love, they are living the gospel, they don't have to say anything. Minimalist, these are people who spend their whole lives raising children that people left on the side of the road, or caring for lepers in places where no one will go within a hundred feet of them. One missionary spent her whole life raising abandoned children in a little house in the hills of India that her husband built himself. She didn't just care for them, she adopted them, and when she died more than fifty of her children came to pay their respects. All she did was care for the forgotten children, she never walked around "street preaching" or anything, but she was called a missionary. If you want to know what motivates people like her, the answer is love.

I know that there are a lot of people who are closed-minded, angry, dogmatic, and judgmental in their approach to faith, but there are people like that in any group. I'm sure there are missionaries like that, heck, I know one, but you can't say that all Christians are closed-minded or ignorant and you can't say that all missionaries are "sticking their bullshit religion into a place dominated by another bullshit religion" because it's such a big group. There are Christians in every nation, cultural group, and profession on the planet. One of the men who died in the incident with the Somali Pirates was a man named Scott Adam. I said that he and his wife were good people not only because of what they were trying to do, it's just what I heard from everybody that knew them. He had worked in the film industry for years (I think he worked on "Loveboat" and "The Goonies" and a bunch of other stuff), but he got burnt out, had a change of heart, and decided to sail the world delivering Bibles with his wife to churches that would never have gotten them otherwise. They loved it, and the churches were very grateful. I've heard Scott had a "colorful" sense of humor and was not the kind of guy you would think was a missionary. Who knows, you might have even liked him.

[reverendjeremiah]

Well, regardless of whether you think that helping people spiritually counts as helping them, that's what they felt they were doing. That's what I meant by "good people," they just wanted to help people. Also keep in mind that most of what they did was deliver Bibles to remote congregations that wanted them. The people were already Christians and it meant a lot to them to have their own Bible to read. We take things like books for granted here, but people in some the places they went would walk ten to twenty miles just to get a Bible. A lot of poorer schools use them to teach children to read because it was the only book they had. I know a lot of people have this dogmatic, Bible-thumping image in their heads of missionaries, but most modern-day missionaries serve in areas where there is already a decent-sized Christian presence or even in villages that are entirely Christian. Most missionaries are there doing practical things, like being doctors or English teachers or providing care for orphans, and they are still called missionaries even if they never hand out a single track or "witness" to anybody.

Communists spread and they think they are helping. Muslims spread and they think they are helping. Christians spread and they think they are helping. The Nazi's spread and they think they are helping. Musolini thought he was helping. Kaiser Wilhelm thought he was helping....
...can we agree that your calling them good for the sole reason that they thought they were helping was a bogus idea?...HEY, I guess Musolini was good too? ....
And sure. When I think of a family traveling the world being missionaries, I VERY MUCH think of extremism and bible thumping. If you think I am not being fair, then what would you think if I said me and my family traveled the world trying to spread the good news that there is no god and Atheism is the only path for humanity? Would you call me "good" then, or would you think I was an extremist nut? Even if I was just going to do electrical work for atheist missionary buildings? Would you think of me so lightly? So dont try to water this situation down. Normal believers dont travel the world for the sole reason to spread their religion.

There's a saying that a lot of missionaries live by, "preach the gospel, use words if necessary." It means that they believe that if they just help people out of love, they are living the gospel, they don't have to say anything. Minimalist, these are people who spend their whole lives raising children that people left on the side of the road, or caring for lepers in places where no one will go within a hundred feet of them. One missionary spent her whole life raising abandoned children in a little house in the hills of India that her husband built himself. She didn't just care for them, she adopted them, and when she died more than fifty of her children came to pay their respects. All she did was care for the forgotten children, she never walked around "street preaching" or anything, but she was called a missionary. If you want to know what motivates people like her, the answer is love.

So if someone travels the world and does good things for people, but also believes the Earth will be destroyed any minute now and that aliens will come from the sky and destroy mankind, and that those who dont believe will not be transported onto the mothership and they also spread that message as well...would you talk just as highly of them? Jim Jones also helped and adopted children that were unwanted. They were forced to drink the kool aid as well when the time came. They were also Christian missionaries. I am sure Jim Jones truly loved his followers, as he killed himself along with the rest of them....sometimes love isnt a good thing.

I know that there are a lot of people who are closed-minded, angry, dogmatic, and judgmental in their approach to faith, but there are people like that in any group. I'm sure there are missionaries like that, heck, I know one, but you can't say that all Christians are closed-minded or ignorant and you can't say that all missionaries are "sticking their bullshit religion into a place dominated by another bullshit religion" because it's such a big group. There are Christians in every nation, cultural group, and profession on the planet. One of the men who died in the incident with the Somali Pirates was a man named Scott Adam. I said that he and his wife were good people not only because of what they were trying to do, it's just what I heard from everybody that knew them. He had worked in the film industry for years (I think he worked on "Loveboat" and "The Goonies" and a bunch of other stuff), but he got burnt out, had a change of heart, and decided to sail the world delivering Bibles with his wife to churches that would never have gotten them otherwise. They loved it, and the churches were very grateful. I've heard Scott had a "colorful" sense of humor and was not the kind of guy you would think was a missionary. Who knows, you might have even liked him.

You make your point, but anyways, I dont feel that a normal believer goes out to be a missionary. I went to Southern Baptist church before. They make sure to tell you that if you are "luke warm" or "moderate", then being a missionary isnt for you. Becoming a missionary to travel the world just for handing out bibles does not make one good. it makes one an extremist in this situation. Like I said before, would you say such nice things about him if he did the EXACT same things he did before, but instead he was handing out Satanic Bibles? Satanists have a colorful sense of humor as well. I know some of them.