Problem dealing with death as an atheist

[reverendjeremiah]

Personally, I've been dead more than once. Flatlined at least three times I know of, jump started each time. Been in two comas that lasted over a week. In each case I could have "passed on" and that would have been that. Each time you have a deep, dreamless sleep you are effectively dead. If you die in your sleep you won't notice it. So you've already had practice at being dead and it wasn't bad, it wasn't good, it was just "not".

I wasn't here for the longest time, now I am, and I'll not be here for another very long time. The "now I am" part is all I can work with, so I'll be having fun, doing things I think need to be done, and loving it while I got it.

Hmm..all of those times you were flat lined, did you have any "afterlife experiences"?

[BeoTurtle]

I've read somewhere that even if humans were immortal, with normal lifestyles the average person would live 600-800 years due to the statistical occurance of fatal accidents. So much for hoping to transform into an elf .

Also, I plan to leave my marks where I have lived. People will remember me. They will tell stories of me. I will leave my diaries to my children. And luckily my family is big on geonoligy, and dutifully keeps the records of the family tree - I know my information won't get lost quickly, and thus a part of me will be saved. The concept of *I* is more then who I am. It is the traces I leave here, it is the stuff I write, it is the memories that other people have, and the children I have. And the impact of people last longer then they give themselve credit for. I likely won't be remembered after 200 years, but small traces of me will always be around, like an echo.

This is what I plan to do.

I can definitely sympathize with the OP, what got me originally was that when we are living, being conscious, that state of mind completely disappears when we die. However, I acknowledged that all of us will eventually pass, and that its better to enjoy life to its fullest then to worry about whatever happens when our bodies rot.

[Gawdzilla]

And, of course, I keep an eye on the fundies in this state, watching for "back door to religion" efforts.

You mean like neighborhood watch?

I am involved in a legislative watch group that monitors bills submitted to the state. We try to makes sure that the fundies don't sneak any bullshit into law under cover of another bill.

[Zen Badger]

"You don't start growing old until you stop growing up." I'm 6 (x 10) years old right now.

What kinds of things will you be doing?

When I get older I'll basically will be doing the same things I did when I was younger.

Drooling uncontrollably, babbling incoherently and shitting my nappies,

Why?

[Zenith]

The passage you may refer to (Gen 2:7-nephesh) refers to “properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality.” It is distinguished from other references to soul as pneuma or psuchē.

Actually I referred to verses like Gen 6.17. I know that in Gen 2.7 it is "man became a living being", but it is written that man became a living being by receiving the "breath" (which also means "spirit") of life. You can't deny the fact that in the bible it is written that man became a living being after receiving the breath/spirit of life, not before.

Nevertheless, the creation of a human by whatever means does not imply the absence or presence of a “soul”. We do not “create” a “soul” by physical contact/normal fertilization.

Right. Scientists cannot create a "soul". And what is a man without a soul? dead. (if man became a living being by receiving the soul).

Sorry, again I meant "And the creation of a living cell from atoms also strongly suggests that life has been created by accident". Think about this: if a cell will be created tomorrow by scientists, directly from atoms, what would everybody say? "We made what God did millions of years ago!"??

Yes, I see your argument.

If everything can be explained rationally and without the need for a “higher power”, would that make God “ redundant”?

Yes.

Would I still believe despite this knowledge?

Possibly. Many would say "yes".

The question is then: “Why do you still choose to believe there is not sufficient proof for a “higher power” despite the fact that evidence so far available suggests that an “intelligence” was involved in creation? (Even Richard Dawkins admits that but attributes it to some wonderful extraterrestrial creatures” ). The only difference being that yours is still a hypothesis at present ( “if a cell”) and mine is true (for at least the present)

So you tell me that everything can be explained rationally and without the need for a “higher power” and evidence so far available suggests that an “intelligence” was involved in creation (i.e. that there needs to be a higher power). Please decide.

It really boils down to a set of beliefs, independent of “science”, does it not? What then? Are we to continue despite evidence?

I guess it's mostly a philosophy, rather than maths/physics/chemistry/cosmology, etc.

I meant, it's a logical problem. The same reason one can't believe that there are actually 12 gods, even though many would say "it is possible". That "possible" lacks many things to become "obvious" (or at least, very credible).

Yes, it is a logical problem if one were to ignore the facts and merely hypothesize.

Again, please decide: either the one above or You are correct, one cannot believe in God of his own volition. One reason being that man, as a fallen creature, will not seek God.

Despite many apparent “contradictions”, the Bible can be trusted as evidence suggests it to be trustworthy.

That means nothing. What you said is like something I've heard a muslim once: "Islam is the true religion. The others are fabricated religions!" (by which he attempted to convince people that Islam is the true religion). In other words, you can't expect people to trust the bible because you told them that it is "trustworthy".

Historical problems? I would be happy to receive info on that.

I engage in conversations such as this for basically two reasons. First is the fact that atheists often ask very relevant questions and I enjoy researching them. Secondly, I enter to discussion to try and give a reasonable answer to those that question Christianity.

Why not spend some time in the Christianity sub-forum? You'll get plenty of opportunities to answer to people.

I have not made a thorough study of all religions. I have conversed with Muslims and found their faith to contain definite lies. The denial of Jesus' death and resurrection is a central issue with some convoluted story about somebody else dying on the cross. Plain logic and historical record will prove that to be false.
As far as Hinduism is concerned a book called “The death of a guru” (you will find it on amazon) gave me some insight. It is a good read, irrespective of your views.

Well, that's a good thing. Very many people don't know anything, don't study anything, but they are eager to teach others.

But a fundi on any other religion? No, I am not.

I didn't mean a fundi, no.

A man cannot believe that your religion is true for the sole reason that if you may somehow be right, he'll go to hell.

Why is this a problem? Do you suggest that we live a life as we please without any morals and also be pure and holy enough to "inherit" heaven? And what is the basis of these “morals”?

Depends what you understand of "morals". Usually, people call what they do as "moral" and "good".

---

Also, I plan to leave my marks where I have lived. People will remember me. They will tell stories of me. I will leave my diaries to my children. And luckily my family is big on geonoligy, and dutifully keeps the records of the family tree - I know my information won't get lost quickly, and thus a part of me will be saved. The concept of *I* is more then who I am. It is the traces I leave here, it is the stuff I write, it is the memories that other people have, and the children I have. And the impact of people last longer then they give themselve credit for. I likely won't be remembered after 200 years, but small traces of me will always be around, like an echo.

I sincerely don't believe that we "live on" in the memories of others: whether they'll remember you or not, you'll not be there to know it. We are not living in others' memories, or by the children we bear, or in the documents we wrote. I sincerely don't care if I would be forgotten after a year I die.

[Zenith]

As for 'scientific proof' in archeology; many religions claim to have proof for their history. Not just Christians and Jews. And such proof is often shaky at best. Even if we leave out dead religions (and some of them aren't as dead as you think, old norse and celtic gods still have followers these days) there are still dozens of religions to choose from, and thousands of denominations.

Yeah, I agree in most part. But consider that those who promote their religions must give "evidence", even where there isn't. So it may require good study to get to a conclusion, but you should get to a conclusion.

I personally don't live by the saying "Nothing can be known!" (in the meaning that, there's no point in studying anything). If you'll take Islam, for instance, you should get historical problems (which can be solved by muslims with a theory of conspiracy, that christians built all this falsehood, when the only trustful resources are Islamic). There's also no plausible proof for the "christians have changed the bible", which they claim, because the Qur'an came after the 7th century and brings twisted stories of Christianity and Judaism (no plausible proof: you can't expect that a secrect council was made, that no one ever recorded, in which the religious leaders have chosen to change the bible, have successfully done that, ALL the christian world agreed, all christian laymen decided to change their views into something totally different suddenly, and there's NO EVIDENCE of that (consider also that it was the developed Roman Empire, not a tribe where no one could write). Besides of the fact that the biblical manuscripts support the Christian & Judaic bible, not the Qur'an).

There are also psychological issues: when that 'prophet' claims that God decided X, when X is what the prophet actually desired (i.e. the Prophet wishes a girl as his wife, so he says: "God (or god X) commanded that this girl would be my wife!"). Also, when the prophet claims that only one God exists, but when he gets into trouble he tells people that god X and god Y also exist and must be served, so that he would not be killed, is also a tricky issue.

There are also the things that are made in order to fascinate people, the people's imagination that was finally accepted as "true" and added as "holy tradition" or something.

Obviously, there are people that accuse those scriptures of "wrong" things and people that defend them. But, if you don't here both views, you may not get to a good conclusion.

Anyway, I believe that the only way it can be know is if they are studied.

As for the soul: The problem is that many concepts of the soul consider the soul to be something unchangable, but at the same time personality is a basic part of the soul. It is already proven that damage in certain parts of the brain can change someone completely. Nice and easygoing persons can become vile toxic monsters, or the other way around. And not just brain damage changes how we act and what we are: hormones and certain types of drugs can change persons significantly. Personality is something that is embedded in the brain.

I don't consider the idea of "soul" as something unchangeable. We, after all, change as time passes. The "soul" should preserve our personality (in other words, if you consider the afterlife, you can't claim to live another life if your spirit got into a new body but you are tabula rasa - without personality, memory, anything: It would simply not be you!).

---

Personally, I've been dead more than once. Flatlined at least three times I know of, jump started each time. Been in two comas that lasted over a week. In each case I could have "passed on" and that would have been that. Each time you have a deep, dreamless sleep you are effectively dead. If you die in your sleep you won't notice it. So you've already had practice at being dead and it wasn't bad, it wasn't good, it was just "not".

I wasn't here for the longest time, now I am, and I'll not be here for another very long time. The "now I am" part is all I can work with, so I'll be having fun, doing things I think need to be done, and loving it while I got it.

Hmm..all of those times you were flat lined, did you have any "afterlife experiences"?

It is interesting that he remembered the time he was "dead". Perhaps that was a feeling of rest or something, which must be nice. Or perhaps comas are not "death".

[Gawdzilla]

It is interesting that he remembered the time he was "dead". Perhaps that was a feeling of rest or something, which must be nice. Or perhaps comas are not "death".

I had no NEDs nor did I remember anything about the time in coma.

[Zenith]

It is interesting that he remembered the time he was "dead". Perhaps that was a feeling of rest or something, which must be nice. Or perhaps comas are not "death".

I had no NEDs nor did I remember anything about the time in coma.

When I said about remembrance I meant this: "Each time you have a deep, dreamless sleep you are effectively dead". It wasn't just as if you blinked your eyes - close now, and when you open them you find out how much time has passed (for you it appeared to be just a second).

[diffidus]

I've been dealing with an issue that I believe only atheists could really help me with, and so I came across these forums. I just joined, and after a quick browse didn't see my issue anywhere, so I apologize if this is a repeat topic.

Anyway. I'll do my best to explain my issue:
I'm an atheist and I also have a few problems with depression and anxiety. My problem, however, is that I've recently developed a MAJOR "fear" of death.

Specifically, I am convinced, beyond a doubt, that there is no existence after death. I am 100% convinced that when I die, there will be nothingness... no afterlife, no me, no thoughts, no blackness, no sleep, nor any ability to think. I won't even know I died, and I won't even be able to acknowledge that I don't know I died. At this moment, I feel like I really understand what that means, and I am deeply deeply disturbed by it. I'm not sure how to cope with it. I can keep it out of my mind for short periods of time, but ultimately I'll read an article about someone dying, see a news report, and so on and start thinking about it again.

If anyone has any advice or thoughts or hopefully some sort of solution to my problem, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks.

You can use one of two strategies to give you comfort:

i) If you remain Atheist, then use this wisdom from Epicurus "When death is here, I am not and when I am here, he is not!!!"

ii) The proposition that God does not exist cannot be held with absolute certainty, since humankind's knowlege is not complete. The Atheist proposition may well be highly probable, but it is definitely not 100% safe. Atheists, therefore, require belief to ascert that God doe not exist. The definition of Atheism is someone who believes that God does not exist.

So here is the second strategy due to the philosopher Pascal.

Since our knowlege is incomplete, there must be a miniscule probability that a God may exist. Therefore, since this life is so short and eternity so vast, it is rational to choose a God to believe in. The rationale is, that if God exists, then you spend the rest of eternity in Heaven, if God does not, then it is a minor inconvenience in an otherwise fleeting existence.

Which do you choose?

[bozo]

---

I've been dealing with an issue that I believe only atheists could really help me with, and so I came across these forums. I just joined, and after a quick browse didn't see my issue anywhere, so I apologize if this is a repeat topic.

Anyway. I'll do my best to explain my issue:
I'm an atheist and I also have a few problems with depression and anxiety. My problem, however, is that I've recently developed a MAJOR "fear" of death.

Specifically, I am convinced, beyond a doubt, that there is no existence after death. I am 100% convinced that when I die, there will be nothingness... no afterlife, no me, no thoughts, no blackness, no sleep, nor any ability to think. I won't even know I died, and I won't even be able to acknowledge that I don't know I died. At this moment, I feel like I really understand what that means, and I am deeply deeply disturbed by it. I'm not sure how to cope with it. I can keep it out of my mind for short periods of time, but ultimately I'll read an article about someone dying, see a news report, and so on and start thinking about it again.

If anyone has any advice or thoughts or hopefully some sort of solution to my problem, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks.

You can use one of two strategies to give you comfort:

i) If you remain Atheist, then use this wisdom from Epicurus "When death is here, I am not and when I am here, he is not!!!"

ii) The proposition that God does not exist cannot be held with absolute certainty, since humankind's knowlege is not complete. The Atheist proposition may well be highly probable, but it is definitely not 100% safe. Atheists, therefore, require belief to ascert that God doe not exist. The definition of Atheism is someone who believes that God does not exist.

So here is the second strategy due to the philosopher Pascal.

Since our knowlege is incomplete, there must be a miniscule probability that a God may exist. Therefore, since this life is so short and eternity so vast, it is rational to choose a God to believe in. The rationale is, that if God exists, then you spend the rest of eternity in Heaven, if God does not, then it is a minor inconvenience in an otherwise fleeting existence.

---

Which do you choose?

diffidus, I ask you again, because you dodged answering on the other thread about atheism being intellectual cowardice, do you WANT/NEED to believe in God?