Open to explore possibility

[Thumpalumpacus]

Have you guys also struggled with "I don't know"? Was it ever scary or painful to reach that place?

It became easy for me once I realized that ignorance is the natural state of affairs, and that it can usually be addressed by study, observation, and thinking. Some questions aren't susceptible to those approaches, though (at least not now). And that enforced ignorance is itself a fact, in that case.

In either case, we can either make our peace with brute facts, or allow them to give us anxiety etc. My outlook: if I can't change it, I don't sweat it.

[R00tKiT]

I don't take kindly to being told what it is I am experiencing. My existential anguish is a result of my indoctrination into a religious cult that gave me the illusion of absolute certainty in exchange for my constant guilt and unflinching obedience.

I don't take kindly to insulting religious people either. Being religious is not synonymous to constant guilt, you can easily find solid studies in the internet about religious people actually being happier in general.

What's more, I am not sure you're thinking about this the right way. The truth of a religious cult and the existence of God are really two different things. You say you discovered that your former religion is simply false, now it's a stretch to reject to existence of any deity outright, which seems to be your position currently.

The thing I am suffering from right now is that my mental and emotional growth has been stunted by God-fearing men, like you, who would rather have me enslave myself to a lie than to truly know myself.

That's another horrendous insult to every religious person around the world. There is no shortage of religious people who lived fullfilling emotional lives and had highly successful careers in something. Religion, after all,concerns itself with metaphysical issues, for which it's irrelevant whether you "know youself" pretty well or not. Nobody can rule out the existence of the tiniest conception of any deity so far. And very sophisticated people were induced by fear, not religion, to believe in some deity. Maybe religion actually does them a favor and tells them that the God who reveals himself through their respective scriptures won't punish anyone for not getting the right answer, as long as they are honest. So, fear has no role to play here whatsoever, for those who understand the content of their reliigon, at least.

So, take a deep breath, you're just throwing insults to believers, left and right.

I don't think happiness is the ultimate goal. We'll call it fulfillment. I would rather go through this pain, teaching myself how to see, how to trust my inner guide, and struggle and stumble than plaster on a fake smile while withering under the demanding, gluttonous dominance of an invisible entity.

I'll repeat it again: the existence of what you refer to as "invisbile entity", and the truth value of your former religious cult, are two separate issues. It's common to read about people who revolt against God simply because their particular religion, among other beliefs, turned out to be false.

Any being that would accept my manipulative lies as "good enough" for heaven automatically abandons the virtuous position. And the smile I would wear while adhering to a repressive religion would indeed be fake.

Such a being is actually just enough not to punish you for being a victim of a manipulative lie, that's why you might go to heaven, not because you chose to stick to a lie. And, you know, it's quite arrogant to think your position is more virtuous than God's.

[Fake Messiah]

, you can easily find solid studies in the internet about religious people actually being happier in general.

Just the opposite:

[Brian37]

One thing that is still a bit scary to me as a fairy new atheist, is accepting "I don't know" and leaving myself open to new arguments, new evidence, etc. I think as a Christian, I was lazy about my religion and took a lot of things for granted. I didn't push or dig, or experiment, I just believed because that was what I was told was true. I mean, I had my own experiences and I studied the scriptures and doctrine, but lazy in the sense that I never questioned or followed my doubts. I never fully researched or tested a belief in a God.

So, for about 30 years of my life, I've been operating on this system of accepting "this is the truth about the world and existence" and moving on with my day. In some ways, I'm still trying to get there, to find something solid to accept so that I can move on with my day and not think about it. But that's not the way I want to live. I don't want to feel secure in something and ever get the rug swept out from under me ever again, simply because I was ignorant or wasn't paying close enough attention.

However, even though this is still something I've only explored for about 4 or 5 months, I do find myself occasionally consumed by the pursuit of arguments and questions. Probably 80% of my waking hours are involved with thoughts about the weight of reality and the flaws in Biblical morality, the nature of God(exploring a "if it were true" thought process), the flaws in the history or literal aspects of the Bible, etc. I can feel myself trying to hammer it all down to make sure the world makes definitive sense.

Have you guys also struggled with "I don't know"? Was it ever scary or painful to reach that place? I recognize it's still new for me and the likelihood that healing from religious trauma will eventually happen.

"I don't know" does not have to involve clinging to old claims. There is lots about the universe and life science is still exploring, for sure. But considering the age of the planet, and the size of the universe, and the fact our species has only been around in our current form 200,000 years of which organized human language in writing is only about 10,000 years old, it makes much more sense to me that humans simply made bad guesses about the nature of reality back then, and simply projected human qualities on the world around them in super natural form. And that isn't just the God of Abraham mythologies. But even in polytheism, the earliest deity/god/spirit claims were earth, like volcanos or animal spirits.

But yea, early on when I first started questioning, I was scared of being wrong, and afraid to debate theists or challenge them, back in the late 80s. I slowly went from Catholic, to "not sure" to "atheist" over a decade, and didn't seek other atheists online until the early 2000s. 

But don't fear debate, and don't just debate Christians, but every religion, including Buddhists, Jews, Hindus, whatever.

If you have any doubts about theists claims and feel stumped, don't take their word for it. If you are not sure, bring their arguments here and there are very smart people here that are far more than willing to pick them apart. One word of advice though. If you are not sure of your "sea legs", my advice is to never do a one on one debate if they invite you. Like in a PM or e-mail. If their arguments are solid, they will be willing to debate you with witnesses, and not in hiding.

[sdelsolray]

...
Have you guys also struggled with "I don't know"? Was it ever scary or painful to reach that place?
...

Intellectual honesty is a virtue, and, contrary to some religious teachings, is not a curse. Whether it is "scary or painful" deals more with the limbic system in your brain and less with the frontal cortex. Learning to distinguish emotional fears and emotional pains from physical fears and physical pains is an acquired skill. I suggest you work on that.

...
I recognize it's still new for me and the likelihood that healing from religious trauma will eventually happen.

Yes, patience is also a virtue. You already have this one working for you.

[GUBU]

[quote='Five' pid='2022693' dateline='1612370680']
<snip>

Sorry but every single word you wrote is meaningless bovine excrement,

---

John von Neumann, a mathematician and polymath, one the brightest scientists to ever live, reportedly said, shortly before his death, "So long as there is the possibility of eternal damnation for nonbelievers it is more logical to be a believer at the end". I am not trying to argue from authority, but if you encounter someone here claiming they have some argument that will break you out of the existential anguish you're describing, you really should be skeptical.

That particular bit of christian sophistry, Pascal's wager, is the biggest most heaping pile of bullshit that religion has ever come out with (and religion are the masters on bullshit).

Let us tear this apart; 1) Which god should we pretend to believe in? There's literally tens of thousands that we know of (and plenty humanity has forgotten). 2) If a god is all knowing (as the abrahamic god is supposed to be) why try to bullshit him? He's only going to find out and damn you anyway. 3) If the god is good then why is he punishing me for coming to the logical conclusion based on the utter lack of evidence for his existence? Why is he punishing Mohamed ibn Mohamed for chasing after a slightly wrong version of him? Why is he punishing Tripitaka for going for the wrong god? And so on. If god made his personhood evident and clear then maybe (and this is a big reach) he would have some justification for punishing us for not acknowledging him. 4) Infinite punishment for a finite crime is the worst form of tyranny and the lowest form of evil.

Oh and on the substance of the quote, it is not logical to believe the unbelievable, it is fearful and ignorant. It is, in fact, a shockingly anti-scientific for a great scientist like von Neumann to have held.

[R00tKiT]

That particular bit of christian sophistry, Pascal's wager, is the biggest most heaping pile of bullshit that religion has ever come out with (and religion are the masters on bullshit).

Pascal's wager is .... Pascal's idea, not any religion's. And I think I was misunderstood, I am not defending Pascal's wager here, I am reminding OP how stupid it is to give up belief in God because the religion he grew up with turned out to be a pile of crap. It's a dishonest move to do so, and once one is dishonest, Pascal's reasoning is actually valid: you're risking an infinite loss for being dishonest toward the god question.

1) Which god should we pretend to believe in?  There's literally tens of thousands that we know of (and plenty humanity has forgotten).  2) If a god is all knowing (as the abrahamic god is supposed to be) why try to bullshit him?  He's only going to find out and damn you anyway.  3) If the god is good then why is he punishing me for coming to the logical conclusion based on the utter lack of evidence for his existence?  Why is he punishing Mohamed ibn Mohamed for chasing after a slightly wrong version of him?  Why is he punishing Tripitaka for going for the wrong god? And so on.  If god made his personhood evident and clear then maybe (and this is a big reach) he would have some justification for punishing us for not acknowledging him.

There are very compelling arguments in favor of God that were presented. The teleological argument is my favorite, last time I discussed it with members in this forum it turns out they assign a dishonest definition to the word design -namely : design = human design[sic]  - to excuse themselves of asserting a non human designer. I am curious to know what is OP's position on this kind of arguments, if they have any.
And as I said repeatedly, religions - Islam, at least- don't say nonreligious people will be punished because they are nonreligious, but because they dishonestly dismissed some religion. This is an important nuance, you and OP should try to take some time to understand it.

Infinite punishment for a finite crime is the worst form of tyranny and the lowest form of evil.

There is no link between the length of a crime and the length of punishment. Killing someone may take a few seconds, but the punishment may be lifelong -or fatal.

[The Grand Nudger]

Would you care o give an example of an honest way to dismiss your silly religion, in your estimation?

[R00tKiT]

Would you care o give an example of an honest way to dismiss your silly religion, in your estimation?

Why are you asking a Muslim if they found an honest way to dismiss Islam ? There obviously isn't any, from my perspective. I think some arguments for the existence of a just God are compelling, I accept the existence of a God. A just god in turn has to have already sent us guidance, I look at the candidate religions for perfect guidance, Islam is the closest match. bingo.

Maybe you're referring to the falsifiability criterion. I actually don't think this criterion can applied outside of the realm of scientific theories. There is no problem with something both true and unfalsifiable. Besides, Islam relies on the quranic text plus a substantial amount of authentic hadiths. If we accept consistency and correctness of scripture as a falsifiability criterion, it's already vulnerable to being falsified if any of the hadiths and/or quranic verses is shown to be false beyond any doubt.

A word of warning here : I don't have a rebuttal for every existent religion on earth. I am just giving my evaluation of the traditional belief systems. Christian trinitarian belief just happens to be something that can be dismissed outright, because it contains a plain logical impossibiltiy: the trinitarian god. Islam endorses monotheism, to my knowledge there is no logical problem with the existence of a unique God, for which I think there are compelling arguments. In this sense, Judaism is superior and less obviously false than christianity.

[Aegon]

One thing that is still a bit scary to me as a fairy new atheist, is accepting "I don't know" and leaving myself open to new arguments, new evidence, etc. I think as a Christian, I was lazy about my religion and took a lot of things for granted. I didn't push or dig, or experiment, I just believed because that was what I was told was true. I mean, I had my own experiences and I studied the scriptures and doctrine, but lazy in the sense that I never questioned or followed my doubts. I never fully researched or tested a belief in a God.

So, for about 30 years of my life, I've been operating on this system of accepting "this is the truth about the world and existence" and moving on with my day. In some ways, I'm still trying to get there, to find something solid to accept so that I can move on with my day and not think about it. But that's not the way I want to live. I don't want to feel secure in something and ever get the rug swept out from under me ever again, simply because I was ignorant or wasn't paying close enough attention.

However, even though this is still something I've only explored for about 4 or 5 months, I do find myself occasionally consumed by the pursuit of arguments and questions. Probably 80% of my waking hours are involved with thoughts about the weight of reality and the flaws in Biblical morality, the nature of God(exploring a "if it were true" thought process), the flaws in the history or literal aspects of the Bible, etc. I can feel myself trying to hammer it all down to make sure the world makes definitive sense.

Have you guys also struggled with "I don't know"? Was it ever scary or painful to reach that place? I recognize it's still new for me and the likelihood that healing from religious trauma will eventually happen.

I think this quote from Tibetan Buddhist nun Pema Chodron explains this experience very well:

"The difference between theism and nontheism is not whether one does or does not believe in God. Theism is a deep-seated conviction that there's some hand to hold: if we just do the right things, someone will appreciate us and take care of us. Nontheism is relaxing with the ambiguity and uncertainty of the present moment without reaching for anything to protect ourselves."

It is okay to not know. You'll learn more about yourself than you ever have when you admit that. Christianity is an awfully narrow-minded belief system, and by that I mean it fixates on largely egotistical and unimportant aspects of existence as a whole.