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RE: If you knew for certain that you were going to Hell
March 8, 2021 at 12:26 pm
(This post was last modified: March 8, 2021 at 12:38 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
It occurs to me that you and I may have been thinking in different directions, Angrboda. Ultimately, though, I have a similar position on the practical utility of trying to avoid hell. Also doesn't seem to be good-for anybody.
Courses of action (I assume that's the majority of what we'd be considering, changes of behavior rather than changes of mind) taken under duress and with respect to some other issue or item than the specifics of the situations at hand themselves. Not exactly a recipe for human success - but at least within the realm of self interest as you mentioned. Oddly enough, if I were going to (christer)hell, it's unlikely to be on account of anything that I've done...which makes it pretty difficult to do something else™ out of self interest to avoid hell. Trying to avoid hell wouldn't even be good-for avoiding hell.
Russian nesting doll territory, for me at least.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: If you knew for certain that you were going to Hell
March 8, 2021 at 1:13 pm
(March 8, 2021 at 12:03 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: I reject the premise as being incoherent. If I don’t believe in Christ, then I cannot be convinced that I’m going to hell until I can first be convinced to believe in Christ, in which case I could not be convinced that I was going to hell.
And so on and so on.
Boru
Ah, yeah. That's a particular mainstream brand of Christianity that says all you have to do is believe in Christ and you'll go to heaven. It proceeds with those Christians who subscribe to that doctrine to defend the premise that a murderer who believes in Christ will go to heaven, while the good non-believers who do charity work, giving their life to living well and service will go to hell simply for denying Christ.
It also indirectly takes a stab at the notion of free will and knowing whether a God exists or not. If Satan knows who God is and chooses to rebel, then why couldn't we? If I knew I was going to Hell and thus knew Christ exists, could/would I still choose to go to Hell?
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RE: If you knew for certain that you were going to Hell
March 8, 2021 at 1:15 pm
If you knew you were going to hell, could you choose one way or the other at all...?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: If you knew for certain that you were going to Hell
March 8, 2021 at 1:19 pm
(March 8, 2021 at 1:15 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: If you knew you were going to hell, could you choose one way or the other at all...?
I have it on dubious authority that it is actually MY choice whether I'm saved or not.
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RE: If you knew for certain that you were going to Hell
March 8, 2021 at 1:21 pm
(This post was last modified: March 8, 2021 at 1:23 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
What choice, specifically? I know, I know, the curt "choose christ" thing, but what is that supposed to mean, or what do you take it to mean, and is it actually something that you can do?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: If you knew for certain that you were going to Hell
March 8, 2021 at 1:30 pm
(March 8, 2021 at 1:13 pm)Five Wrote: (March 8, 2021 at 12:03 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: I reject the premise as being incoherent. If I don’t believe in Christ, then I cannot be convinced that I’m going to hell until I can first be convinced to believe in Christ, in which case I could not be convinced that I was going to hell.
And so on and so on.
Boru
Ah, yeah. That's a particular mainstream brand of Christianity that says all you have to do is believe in Christ and you'll go to heaven. It proceeds with those Christians who subscribe to that doctrine to defend the premise that a murderer who believes in Christ will go to heaven, while the good non-believers who do charity work, giving their life to living well and service will go to hell simply for denying Christ.
It also indirectly takes a stab at the notion of free will and knowing whether a God exists or not. If Satan knows who God is and chooses to rebel, then why couldn't we? If I knew I was going to Hell and thus knew Christ exists, could/would I still choose to go to Hell?
‘Choose to go to hell’ contradicts your original premise.
Boru
‘I can’t be having with this.’ - Esmeralda Weatherwax
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RE: If you knew for certain that you were going to Hell
March 8, 2021 at 1:34 pm
(March 8, 2021 at 1:21 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: What choice, specifically? I know, I know, the curt "choose christ" thing, but what is that supposed to mean, or what do you take it to mean, and is it actually something that you can do?
No, no, you got it right at the first. That was the punchline to the joke I just tried to tell. *I glance at the percussion guy for help on the comedic punctuation but he just shakes his head at me*
I don't have an answer for the logical aspects. Boru kinda hit it on the head that even presenting the argument the way I did is flawed and gets us in a circle.
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RE: If you knew for certain that you were going to Hell
March 8, 2021 at 1:48 pm
I have made bad mistakes in life and I would be afraid of hell in your scenario.
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RE: If you knew for certain that you were going to Hell
March 8, 2021 at 1:54 pm
(This post was last modified: March 8, 2021 at 1:57 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
It's immediately apparent that we lowly human worms have a broader view of what gets a person into hell. Bad Mistakes™, for example. Christer god didn't come up with that one, that's our higher contemporary standard of acceptability.
Rape pillage rampage murder and human sacrifice are all approved items on the divine list. Are you shorter or taller than that murderous clowns nose?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: If you knew for certain that you were going to Hell
March 8, 2021 at 1:58 pm
There's no doubt in my mind that in following the Christian teachings regarding heaven and hell that I would be on the express train to hell. I had some wild and crazy years and since the only way to be redeemed would be to go back to The Church and confess, repent...and the one that would trip me up...accept Jesus Christ as my lord and savior...yeah, that last one ain't happnin".
In the meantime, I think I have been a pretty decent person over all and if that's not good enough...oh well. I lived an unsettled life and left a life of fear behind when I got away from the church and my parents, in that order.
I tend not to freak out about the future. Especially a fictional one.
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