[Serious] The love of a God

[Ferrocyanide]

@Ferrocyanide I thank you for the break down of possible responses. My friend is Christian and when we tried to have further conversation about this topic, he told me a story about how at a time when he was barely making ends meet and living in a tiny house, he was able to save about $20 for Christmas. While at his church, there was a new family who had moved into the area and were having difficulty with money. A "voice" told him to put that $20, all that he was able to save, into the collection plate that came around. Less than 10 minutes later he found an envelope with his name on it and inside was a $100 bill.

I was getting angry on my friend's behalf and didn't want to make him think I was angry with him. I tried once just to say, "There is a human element here. Someone left that for you. It wasn't God wrote your name on an envelope with cash money inside." But apparently , the big guy in the sky who values free will so much, he can't affect our decision to believe by proving himself, the same guy who has to hurt people in order to teach them, is also a puppeteer and can influence the will of regular people to do his bidding. I am declining to further get into it with him.

He is such a lovely person, despite his ailments and spending a good portion of time in a wheelchair, he is cheerful, with heart of gold. I struggle being a dedicated anti-theist, because I believe religion and faith is harmful but I cannot destroy or attack the faith of someone I care about. Not to their face, anyway. So, I decided to come here instead to get it off my chest.

I'm just going to format the text here a bit differently since it becomes part of my files:

“I struggle being a dedicated anti-theist, because I believe religion and faith is harmful”

==I agree with that. From what I have seen, it can be quite harmful and can even bring down a society.
Religion is not made of matter and so it is indestructible.
King, presidents, managers can be removed from power but religion is untouchable.

Your goal shouldn’t be to convert someone. I think that is impossible.
I think the best thing to do is help them think for themselves by giving them a list of possibilities and letting them choose.
This is just in case if he is the type who looks at one facet of the diamond. That applies to anit-theists and atheists as well.
I’m an atheist with respect to some gods, religions that claim that their god made the Earth and humans and such.
I also describe myself as an ignotist. The word god has no particular meaning. It means many things to many people.

"There is a human element here”

==That’s pretty obvious. You said he was at church so some other guy heard about it.
What are the other possibilities? What questions can we ask?

1. Perhaps some alien saw that your friend is a nice guy and gave him 100$.
2. Why did the alien give him 100 united statian dollars (I’m assuming he is in the USA). Why didn’t the alien give him australian money or martian money?
3. Let’s say the jewish god does exist. He is said to be omniscient. Why didn’t he give him the money 10 y ago and write on it, “This is a letter from your god. Don’t open it until Jan 2021”. Now that is a trick that is going to be difficult to do for the average human.
4. Couldn’t this god give the money directly to the poor family? Also, what about everyone else on this planet?
5. Let’s do the math. Give away 20$ and you get 5 times in return. So, give away your house and you’ll get a mansion. Is that what this god is teaching people? To not worry about giving away their possessions because they are going to get it back and some more?

Another possibility is that humans are just helping other humans and that god is the richest person in the universe and he gives you nothing at all.

The goal of such exercises is not to find the absolute truth as to what really happened on that day but to expand your thoughts.
Why? Because tomorrow, he might get a flat tire. Is this friend going to claim that god gave him a flat tire?
Next day, the over might not turn on. Is this friend going to claim that god had something to do with it?
Next day, your porch light doesn’t turn on. Is he going to point the finger at his god every time something goes wrong and every time something goes right?

--Ferrocyanide

[The Grand Nudger]

Religions aren't untouchable, they can be destroyed. Just ask the christians. I wouldn't be concerned with his friends belief in god so much as the nascent prosperity gospel explanation of charitable donations, your no5. It's not a true belief, but it's a fit belief. It mainly preys on desperate people who would very much like to believe in miracles, and miracles for them, and miracles in the form of money for them.....but that's not actually the direction that this particular miracle of money flows.

[purplepurpose]

Religion is toxic and mind crippling. BUT there are a lot worse shit out there and I think, thats why people embrace faith.

[Ferrocyanide]

Religions aren't untouchable, they can be destroyed.  Just ask the christians.  I wouldn't be concerned with his friends belief in god so much as the nascent prosperity gospel explanation of charitable donations, your no5.  It's not a true belief, but it's a fit belief.  It mainly preys on desperate people who would very much like to believe in miracles, and miracles for them, and miracles in the form of money for them.....but that's not actually the direction that this particular miracle of money flows.

Yes, you are right, since many religions have been forgotten along with their gods.
But in the case of judaism, christianity, islam, mormonism, hinduism, budhism, and possibly others, now that they have survived and reached the age of the printing press and computer age, it would be hard to destroy these religions totally.
There will always be a printed copy, or a floppy disk file copy, or some other medium somewhere.

Even if the number of believers reaches 0, one of these religions might rise up again.
The chances probably vary. Mormonism probably would have the least chance since it is too new and too obviously fake.

[Soberman921]

It never ceases to amaze me how Christians can cite free will for all the evils in the world, but God's plan for all the good. Giving God the credit for all the kindnesses people show you while blaming human free will for all the slights will lead you to a very dark view of the world.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Religions aren't untouchable, they can be destroyed.  Just ask the christians.  I wouldn't be concerned with his friends belief in god so much as the nascent prosperity gospel explanation of charitable donations, your no5.  It's not a true belief, but it's a fit belief.  It mainly preys on desperate people who would very much like to believe in miracles, and miracles for them, and miracles in the form of money for them.....but that's not actually the direction that this particular miracle of money flows.

All religions and political and social  systems eventually fall.  Most recently it was the Soviet Union. Next may be North Korea. The PRC autocrats have cunningly realised that many potential trouble makers will accept loss of political freedom for a level of economic freedom. They seem to have pretty tight grip. They may last a while yet, but not indefinitely.

The problem  with human institutions is that we can't ever be sure their replacements will be better. You know, like christianity and the far more permissive religions it replaced.  Today, I really like the general Japanese approach to religion; Both Shinto and Buddhism , depending on circumstance. 

My favourite is the ancient Egypt religion, which lasted for over 3000 years. As far as I'm aware, the oldest organised religion still extant is Zoroastrianism/ Parsi, which is certainly over 2000 years old, and whose origins may be as old as 4000 years

One of my favourite poems is 'Ozymandias' by Percy Bysshe Shelley.   It's about one of the greatest Pharaohs, Rameses The Great.  He built Abu Simbel and a great many more monuments to himself:


I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: "Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed:
And on the pedestal these words appear:
My name is Ozymandias, king of kings;
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away."

— Percy Shelley's "Ozymandias"[4]

[Neo-Scholastic]

This may sound odd so bear with me. Any atheist will tell you there is no evidence for any god so let's take that as given for the sake of this discussion. Now some theists, like me, accept the idea of Divine Hiddeness, which amounts to the same thing. Personally, I follow the negative path recommended by many saints and mystics going way back. That means I look into the contours of the corruption, folly, and evil of this world to know God by seeing where He isn't. It turns the problem of evil back on itself. If all I can sense is an absurd accident then how can we know what is true or good? As an artist I call this the negative space...where the figure and ground reverse and I see the absence as a thing all its own.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Religions aren't untouchable, they can be destroyed.  Just ask the christians.  I wouldn't be concerned with his friends belief in god so much as the nascent prosperity gospel explanation of charitable donations, your no5.  It's not a true belief, but it's a fit belief.  It mainly preys on desperate people who would very much like to believe in miracles, and miracles for them, and miracles in the form of money for them.....but that's not actually the direction that this particular miracle of money flows.

Yes, you are right, since many religions have been forgotten along with their gods.
But in the case of judaism, christianity, islam, mormonism, hinduism, budhism, and possibly others, now that they have survived and reached the age of the printing press and computer age, it would be hard to destroy these religions totally.
There will always be a printed copy, or a floppy disk file copy, or some other medium somewhere.

Even if the number of believers reaches 0, one of these religions might rise up again.
The chances probably vary. Mormonism probably would have the least chance since it is too new and too obviously fake.

Ancient Egyptian religion lasted over 3 thousand years. At one stage the cult of Amun was wealthier than Pharaoh. From memory, during the reign of the great heretic Akhenaten, 14th century bce.  Suited Akhenaten, he took it all back and closed  all the temples, except those to Aten. A bit like a much loopier Henry V111 , who made a fortune from the dissolution of the monasteries  in the sixteenth century.


As far as I'm aware, the oldest extant religion is probably Zoroastrianism/ Parsi, which is over 2000 year old. Origins possibly go back four thousand years. Today it has 3 members and a cat.  (OK, I jest, it has an estimated 100,000 to 200,000 members today)

All human institutions and systems eventually disappear.  Glad I probably won't be around when international capitalism crumbles.

Ramses the Great was arguably Egypt's greatest pharaoh  because he build so many wonderful monuments to himself.( For my money it was Amenhotep 111)

He is  appropriately memorialised by Percy Bysshe Shelley in Ozymandias (that was an ancient Greek name for Ramses 11)


I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: "Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed:
And on the pedestal these words appear:
My name is Ozymandias, king of kings;
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away."

— Percy Shelley's "Ozymandias"[4] 

[Angrboda]

This may sound odd so bear with me. Any atheist will tell you there is no evidence for any god so let's take that as given for the sake of this discussion. Now some theists, like me, accept the idea of Divine Hiddeness, which amounts to the same thing. Personally, I follow the negative path recommended by many saints and mystics going way back. That means I look into the contours of the corruption, folly, and evil of this world to know God by seeing where He isn't. It turns the problem of evil back on itself. If all I can sense is an absurd accident then how can we know what is true or good? As an artist I call this the negative space...where the figure and ground reverse and I see the absence as a thing all its own.

Do these triangles "exist?"

[Neo-Scholastic]

...where the figure and ground reverse and I see the absence as a thing all its own.

Do these triangles "exist?"

The fact that you asked about triangles and not, say circles or butterflies, suggests there is something immaterially present in those figures with the power of efficient cause. In this case, they caused the subject of your question to be "triangles". How can something that doesn't exist prompt you make comment about it?*

*I think this is an interesting question in its own wright. It has a question-begging kind of quality and yet I believe it still has value for teasing out notions about categories of being and various questions about realism. I would also say that this has interest to me as an oil painter because depictive painting relies entirely on illusion for both effect and affect. Can a practice, like representational art, based entirely on deception still "capture" truth? What is the nature of such hidden truths revealed only by illusion?