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Are lockdowns justified?
RE: Are lockdowns justified?
(April 23, 2021 at 5:15 am)FlatAssembler Wrote: So, @arewethereyet , what do you think is the reason the US did so poorly fighting against COVID? The US government did way more than the Swedish government did, yet the US has been doing worse than Sweden.

I don't study how things are going in Sweden.  There are multiple reasons things went south here with regard to COVID...starting with denying it then denying how bad it is. 

Nice side-step on your part by the way.
  
“If you are the smartest person in the room, then you are in the wrong room.” — Confucius
                                      
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RE: Are lockdowns justified?
(April 23, 2021 at 6:58 am)arewethereyet Wrote:
(April 23, 2021 at 5:15 am)FlatAssembler Wrote: So, @arewethereyet , what do you think is the reason the US did so poorly fighting against COVID? The US government did way more than the Swedish government did, yet the US has been doing worse than Sweden.

I don't study how things are going in Sweden.  There are multiple reasons things went south here with regard to COVID...starting with denying it then denying how bad it is. 

Nice side-step on your part by the way.

There are two reasons the US did badly regarding COVID:

1. Donald Trump

2. People who listened to Donald Trump.

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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RE: Are lockdowns justified?
(April 23, 2021 at 7:11 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:
(April 23, 2021 at 6:58 am)arewethereyet Wrote: I don't study how things are going in Sweden.  There are multiple reasons things went south here with regard to COVID...starting with denying it then denying how bad it is. 

Nice side-step on your part by the way.

There are two reasons the US did badly regarding COVID:

1. Donald Trump

2. People who listened to Donald Trump.

Boru

What about Donald Trump? Sure, Donald Trump did suggest treating COVID with a cure for malaria, even though there never was a good reason to think it would work, but it is hard to argue it played a significant role.

(April 23, 2021 at 6:58 am)arewethereyet Wrote:
(April 23, 2021 at 5:15 am)FlatAssembler Wrote: So, @arewethereyet , what do you think is the reason the US did so poorly fighting against COVID? The US government did way more than the Swedish government did, yet the US has been doing worse than Sweden.

I don't study how things are going in Sweden.  There are multiple reasons things went south here with regard to COVID...starting with denying it then denying how bad it is. 

Nice side-step on your part by the way.

What do you mean "denying it and then denying how bad it is"? If anything, early estimates significantly overestimated how bad COVID is. Early models suggested around 1.5 million people would die of COVID in the US... if the USA had a complete lockdown.
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RE: Are lockdowns justified?
Feckless troll, lol.
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RE: Are lockdowns justified?
Quote:What about Donald Trump? Sure, Donald Trump did suggest treating COVID with a cure for malaria, even though there never was a good reason to think it would work, but it is hard to argue it played a significant role.


His constant lying about the seriousness and the extent of the pandemic, his refusal to wear a mask, his hosting of spreader events, his lame excuse that he downplayed the whole mess to avoid a panic, his disdain for science and scientists (some of whom worked for him), his repeated assurance that the disease would miraculously disappear, and his stated desire to underreport cases and deaths for political reasons.

That’ll do to be going on with.

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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RE: Are lockdowns justified?
BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:His constant lying about the seriousness and the extent of the pandemic
He had no way of knowing. Based on the previous experience, when "experts" warn about a dangerous pandemic, they turn out to overestimate it beyond any proportions. It is only this time that they got the order of magnitude right.
BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:his refusal to wear a mask
Based on the information he had, such as Fauci saying "Masks provide some protection, but they do not provide the protection people think they provide. And given that when wearing masks people tend to be reckless with them and touch their faces more, masks may even be counter-productive.", that would have probably been the right thing to do.
In fact, from the research I have done, I would say it probably still is the right thing to do. The recommendation to wear a mask does not seem to be based on rigorous science. The most rigorous study about that done to this day, the Danish study, found no effect. It seems to be based on unjustified assumptions about both hard sciences and soft sciences. Cotton masks work only if COVID-19 cannot survive outside of a droplet, which has not been proven (although it is probably true). And they also work only if people who are forced to wear masks care to keep them clean, which is a huge assumption.
BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:his disdain for science and scientists
Well, you must admit that "experts" cited by the mainstream media have a horrible track record when talking about pandemics. And I do not think untested scientific theories should have more weight than the principles of good governance. I also think most people know about computers just enough to realize their potential, but not enough to realize what the limitations of computer modelling are, and are putting way too much confidence in it.
BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:his repeated assurance that the disease would miraculously disappear
When did he claim that? As far as I know, it is the people who advocated lockdowns who claimed that, that the disease will soon disappear once we have a vaccine.
BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:and his stated desire to underreport cases and deaths for political reasons
As far as I know, it was Andrew Cuomo doing that, not Donald Trump.
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RE: Are lockdowns justified?
(April 23, 2021 at 7:11 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:
(April 23, 2021 at 6:58 am)arewethereyet Wrote: I don't study how things are going in Sweden.  There are multiple reasons things went south here with regard to COVID...starting with denying it then denying how bad it is. 

Nice side-step on your part by the way.

There are two reasons the US did badly regarding COVID:

1. Donald Trump

2. People who listened to Donald Trump.

Boru




That can be summarized as “unfortunate gene pool”.  No wonder some of its contents are so concerned about being replaced.
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RE: Are lockdowns justified?
(April 23, 2021 at 3:13 pm)FlatAssembler Wrote:
BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:His constant lying about the seriousness and the extent of the pandemic
He had no way of knowing. Based on the previous experience, when "experts" warn about a dangerous pandemic, they turn out to overestimate it beyond any proportions. It is only this time that they got the order of magnitude right.

He had the ability to call on the best scientific advice available. He ignored it. He was given early estimates that as many as 250 000 Americans could die. He ignored it, sloughed it off, and repeated the base canard that it's no worse than common strains of influenza. Moreover, he admitted downplaying the seriousness of the pandemic.

BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:his refusal to wear a mask
Quote:Based on the information he had, such as Fauci saying "Masks provide some protection, but they do not provide the protection people think they provide. And given that when wearing masks people tend to be reckless with them and touch their faces more, masks may even be counter-productive.", that would have probably been the right thing to do.
In fact, from the research I have done, I would say it probably still is the right thing to do. The recommendation to wear a mask does not seem to be based on rigorous science. The most rigorous study about that done to this day, the Danish study, found no effect. It seems to be based on unjustified assumptions about both hard sciences and soft sciences. Cotton masks work only if COVID-19 cannot survive outside of a droplet, which has not been proven (although it is probably true). And they also work only if people who are forced to wear masks care to keep them clean, which is a huge assumption.
That assessment of Fauci's was based on the situation in the very early stages of the pandemic. As time went on and the situation got worse, virtually every virologist who commented on it advised wearing a mask. Even when the CDC and the WHO were fully onboard with mask wearing, Trump refused. Had he gone along, there's at least a reasonable chance that his sycophants would have followed suit.
BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:his disdain for science and scientists

Quote:Well, you must admit that "experts" cited by the mainstream media have a horrible track record when talking about pandemics. And I do not think untested scientific theories should have more weight than the principles of good governance. I also think most people know about computers just enough to realize their potential, but not enough to realize what the limitations of computer modelling are, and are putting way too much confidence in it.

Pandemics are, by their very nature, somewhat unpredictable. This is all the more reason to err on the side of caution. Trump failed to do so, and his 'hope for the best strategy cost hundreds of thousands of lives.

BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:his repeated assurance that the disease would miraculously disappear

Quote:When did he claim that? As far as I know, it is the people who advocated lockdowns who claimed that, that the disease will soon disappear once we have a vaccine.

27 Feb 2020: 'It's going to disappear. One day, it's like a miracle, it will disappear.'

6 March 2020: ''Calm. You have to be calm - it'll go away.'

10 March 2020:  'It will go away. Just stay calm. It will go away.'

31 March 2020: 'It's going to go away, hopefully at the end of the month.'

3 April 2020: 'It's going to go away. It is going away.'

7 April 2020: 'It did go - it will go away.'

28 April 2020: 'But I think what happens is it's going to go away. This is going away.'

29 April 2020: 'It's going to go, it's going to leave. It's going to be gone.'

5 May 2020: 'With or without a vaccine, it's going to pass.'

6 May 2020: 'Because, you know, the virus is going to disappear.'

8 May 2020: 'This is going to go away without a vaccine.'

15 May 2020: 'At some point, it'll go away.'

1 July 2020:  'I think that at some point, it's just going to sort of disappear.'

19 July 2020: 'It's going to disappear and I'll be right.'

15 September 2020: 'It's gonna disappear. It's gonna disappear. I still say it.'

10 October 2020: 'But it's going to disappear. It is disappearing.'

A simple web search will find you dozens more like the quotes above. I apologize if it seems repetitive - Mr. Trump doesn't know many words.

BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:and his stated desire to underreport cases and deaths for political reasons

Quote:As far as I know, it was Andrew Cuomo doing that, not Donald Trump.


Quote:During a tour at the CDC on Friday, President Donald Trump said that the experts he consults, including Vice President Mike Pence, want to take people off the ship. However, Trump said that he didn't want the passengers raising the total case count in the US.

"I like the numbers being where they are. I don't need to have the numbers double because of one ship that wasn't our fault," Trump said in a Fox News interview.

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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RE: Are lockdowns justified?
I'm guessing FlatAssembler has something like those magic D&D bags of holding, only his is an Everful-Stein-O'-Bullshit.
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RE: Are lockdowns justified?
@FlatAssembler

Last I heard, Sweden wasn’t doing so hot.
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Wiser words were never spoken. 
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