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The 500 & Common Sense.
#31
RE: The 500 & Common Sense.
(June 23, 2021 at 11:20 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I suppose that if you feel unworthy and/or ignorant and/or incompetent, you'd be less inclined to the self part and more looking for the help.

The best therapist doesn't give advice so much as s/he allows you to discover your own path toward your best self.
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#32
RE: The 500 & Common Sense.
(June 23, 2021 at 4:50 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: [quote='Drich' pid='2045250' dateline='1624476318']


 if life was indeed a form of SIM theory like were are all just apart of a holodeck/matrix recreation of reality (A brain in a vat being fed electrical inputs to make it think it is part of a broader world, or a body tied into a matrix of sorts, or simple AI's who have to die in this world to wake up in reality.. (which is kinda what the bible describes creation is/God to be)

If this is the case then what does it matter if our avatars exposed to in game suffering? ever play a video game? ever trivially kill a sprite/guy just to see what would happen? meaning if we are plugged into the matrix or if we are brains in vats or more biblically correct spiritual beings coexisting in a physical body what does it matter if the avatar is exposed to the dangers of the game so long as the gamer/spirit can not be hurt?

why would God devote a huge amount of energy preserving and protecting what amounts to a digital form designed to live but a few brief moments and then die?

God is concerned about the long Game the Spiritual being (the player in the real world/not mario on the screen) and it's place in the rest of eternity/real world not this sim. meaning if it means mario has to die by having the power turned off early or the game level become so increasing difficult, that the gamer gives up on the game/sim so that in real life he gets up and goes outside to play.. then it is not good that mario (in game had a hard/difficult life?)


So why should god care about, what you as a sim cares about, to the degree you care about it, if his goal is to get you take your turn to play the game and then move on to the rest of your life???

 when in a few moments you will wake up from this simulation and nothing that mattered to you in the sim will matter in the real/heaven world.
You might have more trouble selling those one on one tickets if you describe a god no one wants anything to do with.  What I see is a man who values his own life and his own connections in it very little, and considers the value of others even less.  It's not surprising to me that you float the kind of god that you do.
[/quote]

again using modern terms this is a sim world. why would god invest deeply into your minecraft game taking away all obstacles and giving you unlimited resources and freedom, when his ultimate goal is to get you to put down your simulated world/life and go outside into the real world and play?

(June 23, 2021 at 6:30 pm)Gwaithmir Wrote: And Jesus answered them, “Truly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what has been done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, 'Be taken up and thrown into the sea,' it will happen.” (Matthew 21:21)

“Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.” (Mark 11:24)
Panic oh, wait he's talking faith and doubt.. meaning if you have a mustard seed's (tiny seed) worth of faith you can take a mountain (massive immovable object) of doubt and cast it into the sea... it's called an analogy might wanna look it up. ( not what you think... nothing to do with butts) it in fact explains why jesus can say the word mountain and not actually mean a massive rock formation that exceeds 2000ft.
Quote:“If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.” (John 14:14)
to ask in his name is to ask for the things he wants for you. if you ask in your father's name your asking on behalf of your father. so you can not ask on behalf of your father something he would not want. This is how honest people with integrity understand asking in my name means. yes you can argue this but it will cost you any integrity you have.
Quote:“And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.” (Matthew 21:22)
which is what i said.. it's just not everything an atheist understand to be a prayer is indeed a prayer. Example (anything that starts with dear lord and ends in jesus name.) that again does not follow the only example of a christian prayer we have. so like i said Jesus will answer any prayer once you learn what a prayer is and how to pray.
Quote:> The faith of a child is pure.
but the mind of a child is often stupid.example:

Quote:I recall praying to God in earnest many times in my youth, but God seemed deaf to my entreaties. When I asked my teachers for answers, like Drich, all they did was make excuses. They had an extensive repertoire of excuses:
i have no doubt what you prayed was in earnest and as pure as the driven snow. but what if you were not ready for the things you were asking for? or better yet what if God answered your prayers and you as a child simply did not understand?

Quote:"You didn't pray hard enough."
realistically you probably never learned to pray.
i'm sure you were steeped with religious chants, but this is not prayer. pray God's way and hang on to something. your whole life will turn upside down.


Quote:"Your faith was insufficient."
that's bs as all you need is the faith of a mustard seed. just need to offer it to the god of the bible not to whatever religious deity you were filtering your faith through


Quote:"You're misinterpreting the Bible passages."
i can a test most of you do. but you don't have to know the bible to know God. Once you know God he will teach you.


Quote:"You were being too selfish."
god does not honor the selfish.


Quote:"God is testing you."
right now the only test is will you put a mustard seed's worth of faith into finding and seeking out the God of the bible?


Quote:"God has a divine plan, and in His divine wisdom He isn't going to change His plan just for you."
I kinda said the same thing when i demonstrated that your idea of prayer isn't prayer. in that our prayers are to aling with what God wants for us. they are not bargaining positions or opportunities to change God's will.


Quote:"God suffered for you. Maybe it's your turn to suffer for Him."
not till you first belong to God.
if you suffer now before knowing God then that suffering is in vain.


Quote:"Not all prayers are answered right away. You're too young to understand these things."
most kids are stupid who grow up to be stupid unless they seek out God's wisdom. if you haven't sought out God's wisdom then nothing has changed.


Quote:"In the grand scheme of things, perhaps your prayers are not important enough to require God's attention. Trust in His wisdom."
again probably never said a proper prayer in your life if in the grand scheme your prayers are different than God's direction

Quote:Never would they admit that, maybe God didn't give a shit, or maybe there was never any God listening to those prayers to begin with.  Dodgy

again, if God wants xyz for you and you want 123, why would he do anything for you till you learned to also want xyz? who are you to force God to change his will?

(June 23, 2021 at 6:37 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: [quote='Drich' pid='2045231' dateline='1624473327']

it's called prayer. once you learn to properly pray, you will find God answers all prayer. but again first you have to understand what prayer is.
Umm...

Quote:So, Islam and Catholicism don't offer prayer? Are Muslims all just OCD about needing to flatten rugs in a specific direction five times a day and the infidels just decided it was actually prayer?

not where God is to respond. to a common person no.

In bible based Christianity prayer is a invitation to have one on one time with God. any common person has this ability. no priests, popes emissaries, or prophets, no denomination nor church, saint, or spirit animal needed. just you and God through the faith one has represented of a mustard seed, and a mountain of doubt can be cast into the ocean... kinda makes it hard to question the bible or ask for proof if God is known to you directly..
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#33
RE: The 500 & Common Sense.
(June 23, 2021 at 8:26 pm)HappySkeptic Wrote: You are suggesting that God doesn't care one bit about people or their problems -- the Earth is just a place He plants souls in the hope that they ripen and can be harvested for eternity.
i did not say God is dispassionate to all problems we face in life. my life is a great example of that. i have been given a better life than many kings that have lived in that period. however God's system of reward and concern will not give someone something that will destroy their chance or ability to live eternally with him. as the primary goal is eternal life as he sacrificed his son to provide this. If he is willing to allow his son to be beaten and die at the hands of far lessor beings.. just to over indulge you with everything you want without consequence.
Quote:This "life doesn't matter, only heaven matters" idea is one I vehemently disagree with.  I am actually angry about it.  It can justify any and all evil, and robs life of its beauty.
i though a second before i start this. so hear me all the way out. i get what your saying because you see planes being flown into building as a natural result. which is a product of not only a religion but according to their holy scriptures their God's will as well. So put a pin in that a second. I don't know if you are closer to high school or to the age of having a child go through highschool, but i think this is a way to explain God's involvement with us here on Earth high/EHS.. (Go evolved monkey men!) Now to the high schooler, their experience in school is life. it has it's own political arena, it's own social structures, it's own currency demands and even opportunities for love. it's like an mini ecosystem that some what mimics real life. So that said high school experience/life is important. but at the same time it is just a mirco fraction of your real life. but as a high schooler it is life as you have lived every moment upto this point and can not see life beyond it.
So they tend to live all of life as if HS is it. rtying to keep up with the trends, wearing the right cloths, hang out with the right peopleB ect.. But,a good parent knows there is life beyond high school. just like God knows there is an eternity beyond life in EHS.
Like a good parent God will provide what is NEEDED but will not allow you to over indulged to the point your highschool life will destroy the rest of your real life.. ex..good parent will not allow their kid to become a drug addict or drunk because it is easier for the kid to deal with his anxiety and make friends while plastered Just like God is not going to rain down everything you want because it will make this life easier but stunt your spiritual growth in the next or worse yet cause you to loose or never been saved, because you never spiritually mature.


so how is this different than flying planes into buildings? outside of the fact nothing in the nature or commands we have from the bible as christianis require us to do this.. God does support us in this life but not at the expense of our spiritual growth or eternal well being.

(June 23, 2021 at 9:46 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: It may not rob life of it's beauty so much as it appeals to those who already see no beauty in life.  That being the thing they sought out the advice of a shaman to acquire, after all.

As far as I'm aware, cults like scientology (or our buddy drich's)tend to prey on the polar opposite of happy well adjusted people with a bunch of friends and alot of things to live for.  I mean, case in point, whenever we hear some sob story about how downtrodden and busted a believer was till they found god™ - they're just telling us that they were (perhaps still are) moments from flinging themselves off a bridge somewhere.

not to preach a prosperity doctrine.. but i don't ask God for anything anymore. outside of direction when a big thing/fork in the road happens. I wanna make sure we can aquire or sell whatever it is without it destroying our ministries or our relationship. I'm not set for life or anything but we are very happy with absoltly everything we have been given.

Yes i went through hell growing up but here's the thing. we/my sisters and i simply did not know any better. infact we though we had it good because our parents never divorced and i always got something for christmas and we always had something to eat even if it was kimchee and rice. i honestly did not expect anything much better. Finding God was a matter of following a pretty girl to church going in with the same skepticism that most of you had. then found out, it's all real.

(June 23, 2021 at 10:35 pm)Foxaire Wrote: All religions do that. Tell them they're soul is at peril and that your belief system alone has the cure.

and life has taught you differently?

(June 23, 2021 at 11:15 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: A persons amenability to the messaging might be a comment on their internal state of affairs, however they may appear to others to be.  Self help schemes by any name aren't full of satisfied people.  They may even be well adjusted, I suppose, insomuch as we see them - but not believe it themselves.  Our friend advocating for the god of the lowly human worms is unlikely to get his idea of lowly human worms from religion so much as he's molded his religion to accord with how he sees reality, and specifically human reality.

The snake oil pitch isn't a thing all religions do.  It's it's own thing, optional.

ask yourself why.. a well adjusted content church goer would spend time here, when every aspect of their life and fiber of their being is ridiculed and shat upon? mainstream christian are only tasked to seek out those who have not heard the good news and shake the dust from their feet and walk away from people who refuse god.

I'm here because someone took the time to answer my question despite the crap i was slinging, and i found God. So i wanted to work with people like me who need a little more than a general call to arms.
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#34
RE: The 500 & Common Sense.
(June 21, 2021 at 10:36 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Paul found it very credible just as soon as he found out how to be the provider of the thing.  I say this in jest.  There was never a paul.

IDK. 

Paul always struck me as too much of a controlling asshole to have never existed in the first place. 

I mean, the character in Acts... sure, he never existed. That is mythology. But the guy who wrote (at least parts) of those letters. I think he existed. An old school Jim Jones figure who went around collecting followers. Very charismatic (and poetic) at times, at other times ruthlessly controlling. Seems more fact than fiction, y'know?
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#35
RE: The 500 & Common Sense.
(June 24, 2021 at 12:33 pm)Drich Wrote: not to preach a prosperity doctrine.. but i don't ask God for anything anymore. outside of direction when a big thing/fork in the road happens. I wanna make sure we can aquire or sell whatever it is without it destroying our ministries or our relationship. I'm not set for life or anything but we are very happy with absoltly everything we have been given.

Yes i went through hell growing up but here's the thing. we/my sisters and i simply did not know any better. infact we though we had it good because our parents never divorced and i always got something for christmas and we always had something to eat even if it was kimchee and rice. i honestly did not expect anything much better. Finding God was a matter of following a pretty girl to church going in with the same skepticism that most of you had. then found out, it's all real.
I can tell that no pretty girls had anything to do with whatever reason you had for joining your cult, simply because you claimed as much.  

Quote:ask yourself why.. a well adjusted content church goer would spend time here, when every aspect of their life and fiber of their being is ridiculed and shat upon? mainstream christian are only tasked to seek out those who have not heard the good news and shake the dust from their feet and walk away from people who refuse god.

I'm here because someone took the time to answer my question despite the crap i was slinging, and i found God. So i wanted to work with people like me who need a little more than a general call to arms.
Maybe that's your kink...IDK why you're asking me, only you could have the answer to that, though we both know that no reasonable person could trust any answer you give.

: shrugs :

The god you tell us that you found is just a shitty pitch. I can't make it more simple than that for you. If that's god, you're going to spend your whole life frustrated trying to win friends and influence people on it's behalf. You already seem to have realized this. The genuine core of your absurd complaint is that people you've proven yourself to be an asshole to, keep calling you an asshole. For your own part, you keep blaming your own asshole beliefs and your own asshole behaviors on some silly god. What did you think would happen..here, at this site, that ridicules and shits on your beliefs.....if you committed to doing that?

Are you so fucking lost that there was a real moment that you imagined yourself leading sheep out of the valley, saving souls? That would be sad.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#36
RE: The 500 & Common Sense.
This individual claimed to be a prophet of God:

https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/news/ohio-p...llness-law
And without delay Peter went quickly out of the synagogue (assembly) and went unto the house of Marcellus, where Simon lodged: and much people followed him...And Peter turned unto the people that followed him and said: Ye shall now see a great and marvellous wonder. And Peter seeing a great dog bound with a strong chain, went to him and loosed him, and when he was loosed the dog received a man's voice and said unto Peter: What dost thou bid me to do, thou servant of the unspeakable and living God? Peter said unto him: Go in and say unto Simon in the midst of his company: Peter saith unto thee, Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And immediately the dog ran and entered in, and rushed into the midst of them that were with Simon, and lifted up his forefeet and in a loud voice said: Thou Simon, Peter the servant of Christ who standeth at the door saith unto thee: Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou most wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And when Simon heard it, and beheld the incredible sight, he lost the words wherewith he was deceiving them that stood by, and all of them were amazed. (The Acts of Peter, 9)
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#37
RE: The 500 & Common Sense.
Friedrich Nietzsche Wrote:That faith can make you happy, but that bliss does not yet turn an idee fixe into Truth, that faith does not move mountains, but does place them where there are none: a cursory walk through an asylum explains this sufficiently.

If this is any less true now than it was in 1888, it's only because the deinstitutionalisation efforts of the 1960s led to asylums being closed and the ones left became harder to find.
Comparing the Universal Oneness of All Life to Yo Mama since 2010.

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I was born with the gift of laughter and a sense the world is mad.
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#38
RE: The 500 & Common Sense.
@Drich

Predictably, you dipped into your repertoire of excuses.
"The world is my country; all of humanity are my brethren; and to do good deeds is my religion." (Thomas Paine)
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#39
RE: The 500 & Common Sense.
(June 21, 2021 at 6:31 pm)Jehanne Wrote: I have, at age 53, just finished listening to the Age of Reason on audio book (Audible), having never read it.  All that I can say is that Thomas Paine, whom I consider to be one of the Founding Fathers, is truly amazing.  Even though his book is 200 years old, it is an incredible analysis of "Holy Writ".  Paine's discussion of Paul's "500 brethren" in 1st Corinthians 15 is truly amazing, and contains analysis that I have never heard before, from anyone, including Professor Bart Ehrman, although, I am sure that such deficiency is on my part alone.  But, here's Paine's take on things:

1)  Paul was an extremist, who went from one end to another, first persecuting Christianity before becoming one of its most adherent believers.

2)  Most importantly, and never considered by yours truly; assuming, for the moment, that the story of "the 500" was true, such "evidence" was, at the time, not sufficient to convert Paul to Christianity.  In other words, even with the so-called "500 witnesses," Paul still persisted in his unbelief, and so, even their supposed testimony was insufficient to convince Paul of the so-called truth of the Gospel.  Only Paul's private encounter with Jesus enough to convince him, and not the experiences of others.

3)  As was known to me, Paul is the only one who mentions "the 500"; they do not mention themselves (say, by recording their experiences of Jesus firsthand) nor does anyone else mention them, either.

Paine's conclusion:  Paul mentions testimony as being "evidence" of Jesus' Resurrection which he, Paul, found to be unconvincing during the time that he was an unbeliever.

I find it remarkable that human beings are far quicker to give kudos to men/each other for being "amazing" based on finite analysis of GOD's work and inspired word - yet hesitate or decline to give thanks or even credit to the Creator Who made all things, and by Whom all things consist.  

 
1. Since the fall and degeneration of man - mankind (like Saul turned Paul) has been on the other end of the spectrum in relation to Who and how holy GOD truly is.
 
“The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, There is none who does good. The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there are any who understand, who seek God. They have all turned aside, they have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one.” - Psalm 14:1-3
"But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away." - Isaiah 64:6... but when GOD meets you (like He met Paul on the road to Damascus), you do a 180 degree turn (I have shared before that this is my humble experience, like Paul's, corroborated by the Holy Bible).
 
2. Yes, "...Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of GOD" - Romans 10:23 but we do not choose when to be saved, GOD does this work in His perfect time - and when He does (like Paul), we are compelled to turn - in reality from death to life. So also is the change of heart and mind - from one extreme to the other; so Paul's transformation is understandably spot on.
 
3. Paul testified in 1 Corinthians 15:8 "Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time." - so the testimony is not only reported and shared by others, but by Paul as well. 
 
Only GOD can open our eyes, ears and hearts to truly see, hear and truly perceive.  It is imperative to humbly look to Him for answers - and I tell you that He answers prayer. 
 
"For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe." - 1 Corinthians 1:21
 
"But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." - Hebrews 11:6
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#40
RE: The 500 & Common Sense.
(June 27, 2021 at 2:32 pm)Mercyvessel Wrote:
(June 21, 2021 at 6:31 pm)Jehanne Wrote: I have, at age 53, just finished listening to the Age of Reason on audio book (Audible), having never read it.  All that I can say is that Thomas Paine, whom I consider to be one of the Founding Fathers, is truly amazing.  Even though his book is 200 years old, it is an incredible analysis of "Holy Writ".  Paine's discussion of Paul's "500 brethren" in 1st Corinthians 15 is truly amazing, and contains analysis that I have never heard before, from anyone, including Professor Bart Ehrman, although, I am sure that such deficiency is on my part alone.  But, here's Paine's take on things:

1)  Paul was an extremist, who went from one end to another, first persecuting Christianity before becoming one of its most adherent believers.

2)  Most importantly, and never considered by yours truly; assuming, for the moment, that the story of "the 500" was true, such "evidence" was, at the time, not sufficient to convert Paul to Christianity.  In other words, even with the so-called "500 witnesses," Paul still persisted in his unbelief, and so, even their supposed testimony was insufficient to convince Paul of the so-called truth of the Gospel.  Only Paul's private encounter with Jesus enough to convince him, and not the experiences of others.

3)  As was known to me, Paul is the only one who mentions "the 500"; they do not mention themselves (say, by recording their experiences of Jesus firsthand) nor does anyone else mention them, either.

Paine's conclusion:  Paul mentions testimony as being "evidence" of Jesus' Resurrection which he, Paul, found to be unconvincing during the time that he was an unbeliever.

I find it remarkable that human beings are far quicker to give kudos to men/each other for being "amazing" based on finite analysis of GOD's work and inspired word - yet hesitate or decline to give thanks or even credit to the Creator Who made all things, and by Whom all things consist.  

 
1. Since the fall and degeneration of man - mankind (like Saul turned Paul) has been on the other end of the spectrum in relation to Who and how holy GOD truly is.
 
“The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, There is none who does good. The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there are any who understand, who seek God. They have all turned aside, they have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one.” - Psalm 14:1-3
"But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away." - Isaiah 64:6... but when GOD meets you (like He met Paul on the road to Damascus), you do a 180 degree turn (I have shared before that this is my humble experience, like Paul's, corroborated by the Holy Bible).
 
2. Yes, "...Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of GOD" - Romans 10:23 but we do not choose when to be saved, GOD does this work in His perfect time - and when He does (like Paul), we are compelled to turn - in reality from death to life. So also is the change of heart and mind - from one extreme to the other; so Paul's transformation is understandably spot on.
 
3. Paul testified in 1 Corinthians 15:8 "Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time." - so the testimony is not only reported and shared by others, but by Paul as well. 
 
Only GOD can open our eyes, ears and hearts to truly see, hear and truly perceive.  It is imperative to humbly look to Him for answers - and I tell you that He answers prayer. 
 
"For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe." - 1 Corinthians 1:21
 
"But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." - Hebrews 11:6

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