Mormon Prophet

[HappySkeptic]

@Nudger

...You think very poorly and low of me and you seem to like to come into topics where I am to give the most uncharitable takes. This will truly be the last response I give to you.

To be fair, Nudger challenges almost everything, and posts on almost every topic.  I wouldn't take this personally.  If anything, I think he was trying to get you to clarify your position, which you've done.

[Astreja]

It's impossible to enjoy anything if our cognition was actually capable of understanding literal non-existence.

Klorophyll, on what basis do you make judgements on the cognition of other people? I don't think you're in a position to determine what anyone else understands or doesn't understand, just as I am not privy to the inner workings of your perceptions.

I've had a very good internal conceptualization of and acceptance of nonexistence for many years, and I enjoy many, many things. YMMV.

[The Grand Nudger]

You think very poorly and low of me and you seem to like to come into topics where I am to give the most uncharitable takes. This will truly be the last response I give to you.

Not at all, don't know you from adam.  It was only a question about a thing I read alot in deconversion narratives (and a pretty strong interest of my own).  I have no idea what it's like, myself, so I have to ask.  From your response, it seems like there is some anxiety between what you see as valuable and the questionability of it's origin in your life.  Sometimes it goes the other way when I ask, people say yeah... no rules, no knowledge, no value even.  Tabula rasa.

What are some of the truths or values that you've had to find alternate justifications for since losing your faith?  The things alluded to in response?  Have you found all of the important ones yet, or are you still rebuilding?

[Rev. Rye]

I recently re-listened to Last Podcast On the Left's series on Mormonism, and Marcus ended it with these words: "If you're someone who's listened to this entire series [read: the series on Mormonism, covering six episodes, 12 hours and 50 minutes, and the history of the mainstream church up till the death of Brigham Young (plus some detours into their more notable revelations) and the even nuttier offshoots] with guilt because you have questions about your faith and particularly, the history behind your faith, we want you to know that there's absolutely no reason for that guilt. If you want to leave, then leave, and if your family doesn't accept it or accept you for whatever reason, remember, as we always say, friends are the family you choose, and remember that there people out there willing to help you overcome your fears. Because at the end of the day, just remember that the reason why you're feeling that fear and guilt is because a grave-robbing magician decided 200 years ago that he didn't feel like working his family's rock farm. And the scam he used to escape took on a life of its own, thus birthing the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints."

[zwanzig]

That's great, @Rev. Rye . I have never seen that particular podcast as my research out of Mormonism had me consuming different channels and types of media. But the fact that there are so many avenues and hubs of communities for ex-Mormons shows there's more support for us now than there was probably 20 years ago. 

@The Grand Nudger I think part of my misinterpretation of your intent comes from misunderstanding you most of the time. Even when you're asking something seemingly simple, as you just have done. I feel like I should get what you are saying, what you are asking for, but I don't. It's an insecure feeling and has to do with the way you and I in particular are communicating, not an anxiety on my part from being asked about my current values. My anxiety is from not clearly knowing how to respond to you and feeling mocked for my failure to understand. Rereading with a clearer head, I see that is not going on. But considering this happens almost every single time you and I interact directly (where I have this perception and reaction) and literally no one else, I am inclined to believe there's just something oil and water going on with communication styles and not anything personal or vindictive.

I don't understand what you are asking me about justifications for moral values. I don't know what you mean about finding the important ones. Mainly because I feel like you're trying to say that there are aspects of Mormonism that I could keep and maintain and might be beneficial to my life. There's not, in my opinion. Not any that I couldn't find stronger and better outside of the cult. 

It is a repressive religion by design and there is a communal shaming that goes on among those who are Mormon, towards those who are not, and among family members. If you're not living the standards exactly, you will feel the disappointment and judgement rather than hear it directly. And by standards, I mean, you don't murder, you don't steal, you don't lie but you have some coffee, or you smoke cigarettes, or if you have a beer, or you watch an R-rated movie, or you let someone of the opposite gender sleep over(even if you don't have sex, there is the subtle judgement of being too close with someone outside of marriage; the appearance of evil). So, the community aspect is one that encourages high religiosity, self-censorship, and guilt over things that are not morally wrong(arguably, smoking cigarettes might affect well-being but the other things are normal, natural, and even harmless or healthy). I'm the high anxiety type of personality where if I tried to attend church tomorrow, wearing a suit and tie as a transman, I would feel affected by the withholding of privileges given to male members of the faith, and I would be welcomed in that way where you can feel through their smiles how uncomfortable they are with my presence. Not only that, but sitting there listening to talks and testimonies about what will truly make me happy and the chains of sin, I would feel those shame and guilt cycles again that signal the start of a religiosity episode. I don't think I would fall back into belief but it would not be constructive for me to be around people who would constantly feel compelled to say "hate the sin, love the sinner" defining my existence as unworthy of even God's acceptance or love.

For all their push for families being important, Mormonism has been shown to be damaging to the family unit as these dynamics of church community are replayed out in the internal family unit. And there's a pressure to perform and present a face to the greater community. Thankfully, my immediate family are inactive Mormons. I think my siblings believe but they never attend church and they don't pray, read scriptures, or caution against coffee, tea, or alcohol. My mother believes, I know. And I think she secretly pays tithing(she might assume I would disapprove because we don't make enough money to give it away to a church that doesn't actually do anything it promises; besides that, she smokes and doesn't attend church and has had boyfriends stay over since her and dad split up; you can't just pay tithing and be square with God in Mormon theology; it's the WHOLE thing, living the standards being temple worthy, repenting of every bad thought and paying tithing and attending every Sunday. Tithing by itself in the theology is like fasting without praying and studying; you're not fasting, you're just starving yourself unless it is accompanied by the study and deep prayer the whole time. Same with tithing.)

So, I have the benefit of my family not putting the church above our relationship. After I got really upset about this stuff last October and November, we decided to not talk about it anymore because honestly... They don't really care. They don't want their core belief in the church challenged but they don't live it enough for them to be knowledgeable enough to be worth e beating up their belief. They believe because mom and dad took us to church when we were younger, and she believes because that's what her parents did too. 

I had my wild youth during my inactivity while married and after the divorce. I tried alcohol back then, found that I enjoy scotch whiskey(the more highland the better) and have chosen not to ingest anymore because it wastes the time I would rather be doing other things(you can't read drunk, you can't paint drunk, you can't write stories drunk, and I'm not fond of talking to other drunk people about the last time we got drunk together). I had a few intimate relationships after my divorce with men and women. At 34 I am likely too young to feel like I'd rather be alone out in the country, but that's what feels right.

I don't know what other moral values I'd need to find secular justification for. I don't steal or lie because of the knee-jerk guilt I feel over it(likely a result of the conditioning I received as a young person; I just inherently accept that lying and stealing are bad and I should feel shame, even if I tell someone what they want to hear instead of the truth; it's messy and without God, I will eventually have to examine my reasons for thinking those things are wrong, because at some point I may find a situation where I could justify it even though it is harmful to either myself or others, so, I need to have a stronger foundation than "This was what I was always taught so let's just keep doing that").

Other big things like murder, rape, or causing others pain and suffering, are kept out of convenience mostly with a backing of societal well-being. I don't want to be murdered, raped, or tortured, so, I keep the decorum of society to better ensure those boundaries are returned to me. These aren't daily choices though; it's not an urge I have ever faced and had to rationalize with moral arguments.

I've talked before about how my political leanings have changed and it's mostly me trying to remain consistent in my philosophical and political views. Like, I don't believe in a soul or a God or in sexual purity, so, abortions, if the pregnancy is unwanted, seems reasonable. Because I would rather children be born into families that want/have at least smewhat prepared to have a child. I also heavily lean into body autonomy and consent in regards to abortion, that it is unfair for one life to use another's body without their consent. And I believe sexual freedom is good for society. If my ex and I had been together before we were married as two virgins, we would have had so much more information about not only each other but ourselves before signing a government contract to share our lives and property. We would have been better informed than we were and I think practicing givng and receiving intmacy are important in order to bond with others. So, I don't think "just don't have sex" is a healthy discussion to have in regards to abortion.

I guess that I'm trying to say that thngs like sexual purity no longer seem like moral issues to me. But in having to go back and find the things I have abandoned, talking about sex and physical purity comes up a lot.

I don't know. Maybe if you clarify a bit more, I can understand what you're asking for.

[The Grand Nudger]

Sure, np. I think you had the gist of it in broad strokes, the things we may believe at one point in our life for one set of reasons...which, later in life, we may still believe - but for entirely different reasons ( or as pure intuition ).

Things a person might have once believed were true or valuable based on a god-premise, which, when we no longer believe that god-premise, we still believe to be true or good or valuable. Not the articles or items of a religion at that point, or an argument to return to or hold those beliefs. We can fairly say that these are a persons very own internal possessions - regardless of the fact that they once (wrongly) believed they had some necessary relationship to a god. Things they would believe and believe to be valuable regardless of whether they believe in a god as demonstrated by the fact that they still simply do after having lost their faith.

I respect that you've found yourself shedding a lot of negative and painful baggage, that's why I was wondering about the remaining stuff. The stuff you woke up one day, still believing, not about gods but the good stuff in your life. The things you may have felt anxiety about in contemplating leaving your religion, as though it would be leaving them or there would be no justification for them. Sigh of relief type beliefs or values or goods or truths that it turns out you can and do have in your life outside of god belief.