Temporal lobe epilepsy & religious experience.

[GrandizerII]

There are different levels of religious experience, Jehanne. In the OP, you seem to be suggesting that they are all due to TLE? Even the experiences of the sort that are deemed remarkable aren't necessarily due to that. Just because some correlation exists between X and Y in a way that implies that X could be due to Y doesn't mean X cannot also be due to Z in other scenarios.

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I think you need to be careful with the conclusions you personally derive from one study, especially when it comes to human psychology.

People need to be trained to analyze the outcomes of these studies. You don't just willy-nilly come up with your own interpretation that suits what you already believe to be true.

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How is weeping for beliefs sympathy?

Last item, first.  I sometimes cry, when I am sad, and sometimes the suffering in our World is too much to bear, and I succumb to my emotions and sob.  I do feel pity on children who die before their time, because, I know to a scientific certainty that they are gone, forever, and that absolutely nothing remains of their conscious experience, that which made them adorable little children.  I blame religion, more often than not, for its belief in a God and an afterlife, that posits the false notion that aspects of a human being's identity survives the death of that individual's brain.  If people understood, as do I, that the physical death of an individual (especially, a child) means that individual's annihilation, never to return, I believe that the war in Ukraine would not be occurring right now, and, overall, that there would be much less violence in the World today.  (Just my two cents.)  I weep, albeit distantly, with the parents who have lost their child, and have empathy for their need to believe that their little one has gone to Heaven, and that they will be reunited with their dead child someday, and I am not about to tell them otherwise, unless, of course, they come here of their own free will, in which case, we owe them the truth.

Oh ok, I get what you mean now. Thanks for clarifying. So you meant to say that you weep for people, not for beliefs.

As for the first item, I am not a psychologist, anthropologist, archeologist, neurologist or sociologist, but, the evolution and psychology of religious belief has been well studied.  From our distant H. Sapiens ancestors some 75,000 years ago who worshiped the carved figure of a giant snake right up to the present, religious faith and belief serve individual, societal and political purposes.  We all can and should empathize with that; but, at the same time, religious faith and belief can be destructive, too destructive, in my opinion.  As such, belief in God needs to go, in my opinion, not only for the individual, but, especially, for the survival of our species.

Ok, but the evolution and psychology of religious belief being well studied does not lend support to what you argued in the OP specifically.

Even the study in the OP doesn't say what you said at the top of your OP.

Referring to this specifically:

For the varieties of religious experience, we need look no farther than the following:

That is false. We do need to look farther than just a subset of cases in which religious experiences are linked to TLE. That study doesn't account for all religious experiences in general; it's saying that there is a significant correlation between having TLE and having religious experiences.

Let me put it this way: If a person were to claim they felt God's presence while praying in a church, do you consider that to be a religious experience? And if so, is it due to TLE? What does Ockham reveal to you in this case?

[Jehanne]

Last item, first.  I sometimes cry, when I am sad, and sometimes the suffering in our World is too much to bear, and I succumb to my emotions and sob.  I do feel pity on children who die before their time, because, I know to a scientific certainty that they are gone, forever, and that absolutely nothing remains of their conscious experience, that which made them adorable little children.  I blame religion, more often than not, for its belief in a God and an afterlife, that posits the false notion that aspects of a human being's identity survives the death of that individual's brain.  If people understood, as do I, that the physical death of an individual (especially, a child) means that individual's annihilation, never to return, I believe that the war in Ukraine would not be occurring right now, and, overall, that there would be much less violence in the World today.  (Just my two cents.)  I weep, albeit distantly, with the parents who have lost their child, and have empathy for their need to believe that their little one has gone to Heaven, and that they will be reunited with their dead child someday, and I am not about to tell them otherwise, unless, of course, they come here of their own free will, in which case, we owe them the truth.

Oh ok, I get what you mean now. Thanks for clarifying. So you meant to say that you weep for people, not for beliefs.

As for the first item, I am not a psychologist, anthropologist, archeologist, neurologist or sociologist, but, the evolution and psychology of religious belief has been well studied.  From our distant H. Sapiens ancestors some 75,000 years ago who worshiped the carved figure of a giant snake right up to the present, religious faith and belief serve individual, societal and political purposes.  We all can and should empathize with that; but, at the same time, religious faith and belief can be destructive, too destructive, in my opinion.  As such, belief in God needs to go, in my opinion, not only for the individual, but, especially, for the survival of our species.

Ok, but the evolution and psychology of religious belief being well studied does not lend support to what you argued in the OP specifically.

Even the study in the OP doesn't say what you said at the top of your OP.

Referring to this specifically:

For the varieties of religious experience, we need look no farther than the following:

That is false. We do need to look farther than just a subset of cases in which religious experiences are linked to TLE. That study doesn't account for all religious experiences in general; it's saying that there is a significant correlation between having TLE and having religious experiences.

Let me put it this way: If a person were to claim they felt God's presence while praying in a church, do you consider that to be a religious experience? And if so, is it due to TLE? What does Ockham reveal to you in this case?

As an atheist, my greatest, fondest hope is to live forever in eternal, endless bliss, in the arms of an eternal loving God, along with all those whom I loved and knew, pets, too. Such is not in the cards, though, and I do lament my own annihilation someday, and those whom I love, and, yes, such does, on occasion, bring tears to my eyes. In this respect, I do weep for beliefs, as well as for those who hold them; atheism, at times, can be downright depressing.

At the same time I so very firmly believe that atheism offers Humanity true hope, especially, to survive. Atheism is, I believe, intellectual thought of the highest grade devoid of any baggage or contradictions that, in my opinion, plague the writings of intellectual theists; one can see on their faces and hear in their voices the cognitive dissonance as they try over and over to bend and shove their square peg into a round hole. As such, it feels good at times to be living in the real World, a breath of fresh air on a spring day. Atheism, while depressing for me, can be liberating.

Someone feeling the presence of God is purely psychological and physiological; as a believing teenager, I remember those experiences well. For some, the presence of God is downright psychotic and dangerous. For nearly everyone else, it's just a benign, comforting physiological experience; some good public health at no cost.

As for my OP from six months ago, I linked to an article in Wikipedia, and yes, as some two-thirds of schizophrenics in our Day are never diagnosed (they have what psychologists term "functional schizophrenia"), all religious experiences, including the founders of all World religions, could be viewed as being functional schizophrenics, with or without temporal lobe epilepsy. By the way, someone could have a seizure, "see God", without any overt physiological manifestations.

[R00tKiT]

As for the first item, I am not a psychologist, anthropologist, archeologist, neurologist or sociologist, but, the evolution and psychology of religious belief has been well studied.  From our distant H. Sapiens ancestors some 75,000 years ago who worshiped the carved figure of a giant snake right up to the present, religious faith and belief serve individual, societal and political purposes.  We all can and should empathize with that; but, at the same time, religious faith and belief can be destructive, too destructive, in my opinion.  As such, belief in God needs to go, in my opinion, not only for the individual, but, especially, for the survival of our species.

You seem to forget one crucial thing: the human brain seems to favor belief in the supernatural. Again, being able to understand how people formed religious beliefs throughout history doesn't undermine theism.

 I weep, albeit distantly, with the parents who have lost their child, and have empathy for their need to believe that their little one has gone to Heaven, and that they will be reunited with their dead child someday, and I am not about to tell them otherwise, unless, of course, they come here of their own free will, in which case, we owe them the truth.

Absent revelation as an absolute source of truth, obviously nobody can really say anything about whether there is an afterlife. 

As for my OP from six months ago, I linked to an article in Wikipedia, and yes, as some two-thirds of schizophrenics in our Day are never diagnosed (they have what psychologists term "functional schizophrenia"), all religious experiences, including the founders of all World religions, could be viewed as being functional schizophrenics, with or without temporal lobe epilepsy.  By the way, someone could have a seizure, "see God", without any overt physiological manifestations.

I am curious to know how would you go about diagnosing military leaders and social reformers with schizophrenia, which is debilitating. I am going to focus on the Islamic prophet because I know more about his biography than that of other religious figures, 
For people who are interested, there is a peer reviewed article of a neurologist, Frank R. Freemon, [Chief Neurologist at the Veterans Administration Hospital in Nashville] entitled "A Differential Diagnosis of the Inspirational Spells of Muhammad the Prophet of Islam", here is what he has to say about schizophrenia : 

"Schizophrenic hallucinations include voices, sometimes with a personal message, but it is unlikely that the dull effect of the schizophrenic would have inspired the tenacious loyalty of the early followers. It is also unlikely that a person with loose associations and other elements of schizophrenic thought disorder could guide the political and military fortunes of the early Islamic state. "

With regards to TLE, he gives reasons for and against the diagnosis :

Favoring the diagnosis :

Paroxysmal onset 
Failing to the ground with loss of consciousness
Autonomic dysfunction 
Hallucinatory imagery

Opposing the diagnosis :

Late age of onset 
Lack of recognition as seizures by his contemporaries
Poetic, organized statements in immediate postictal period 

I can include a direct sci-hub link to the article if it doesn't violate any policy of this forum, alternatively, anyone interested can easily find it themselves

[Jehanne]

All clinicians will tell you that it is impossible to diagnose someone with any psychiatric condition who lived decades or centuries ago. Fact is, though, that "God's revelation" has, apparently, not stopped, because, there are hundreds of individuals in our World today who are claiming active visions of Jesus, the Blessed Virgin Mary, etc. Few believe them, of course; but, if such individuals exist in our Day, with or without a DSM diagnosis, then they also existed in times past.

[Foxaèr]

Paul definitely had issues in the attic.

Probably syphilis.

[Jehanne]

Paul definitely had issues in the attic.

Probably syphilis.

He may have also been eating too many wild mushrooms.

[The Grand Nudger]

"Paul" was a grifter who misrepresented himself and created an overtly political subset of christian belief by focusing on a massive unexploited market - gentiles. That doesn't take mental issues or drug use. People are still doing it today.

Perfectly healthy, very wealthy people.

Similarly, there are politicians and warlords (redundant?) today who also claim to speak for or directly to god, the god that cosigns all of their ideas. The god that is with them when they attack, the god that loves what they love and hates what they hate. The god that promises that politician or warlords followers immense reward, and all of their enemies eternal flame.

There isn't anything in the alleged characters of paul or mo that requires, asks for, or suggests any novel explanation whatsoever.

[vulcanlogician]

I am curious to know how would you go about diagnosing military leaders and social reformers with schizophrenia, which is debilitating. I am going to focus on the Islamic prophet because I know more about his biography than that of other religious figures, 
For people who are interested, there is a peer reviewed article of a neurologist, Frank R. Freemon, [Chief Neurologist at the Veterans Administration Hospital in Nashville] entitled "A Differential Diagnosis of the Inspirational Spells of Muhammad the Prophet of Islam", here is what he has to say about schizophrenia : 

That's interesting stuff. And I appreciate your efforts to "rule out" schizophrenia by referring to scholarly material. I don't know if someone else presented a different challenge to you, but my point is that because physiological phenomena can "in principle" produce mystical states of consciousness, they are a contender for an explanation of these experiences.

I'm not saying Mohammed necessarily had schizophrenia. He might have wandered into a mushroom patch or ate some moldy rye. Perhaps he fasted for a very long period or engaged in extended periods of meditation. All of these things are physical activities that can result in mystical experiences.

My (not-so-ambitious) hypothesis is that it might have been a physiological cause. There is no saying one way or another whether God intervened. There are a plethora of ways such experiences could have been had without divine intervention. These things have been documented to happen in people with little or no interest in religion when such physiological prompts are induced in laboratory conditions.

This being the case, we needn't assume divine intervention as a prime hypothesis. It is one hypothesis among many, and a weak one at that.

[The Architect Of Fate]

I am curious to know how would you go about diagnosing military leaders and social reformers with schizophrenia, which is debilitating. I am going to focus on the Islamic prophet because I know more about his biography than that of other religious figures, 
For people who are interested, there is a peer reviewed article of a neurologist, Frank R. Freemon, [Chief Neurologist at the Veterans Administration Hospital in Nashville] entitled "A Differential Diagnosis of the Inspirational Spells of Muhammad the Prophet of Islam", here is what he has to say about schizophrenia : 

That's interesting stuff. And I appreciate your efforts to "rule out" schizophrenia by referring to scholarly material. I don't know if someone else presented a different challenge to you, but my point is that because physiological phenomena can "in principle" produce mystical states of consciousness, they are a contender for an explanation of these experiences.

I'm not saying Mohammed necessarily had schizophrenia. He might have wandered into a mushroom patch or ate some moldy rye. Perhaps he fasted for a very long period or engaged in extended periods of meditation. All of these things are physical activities that can result in mystical experiences.

My (not-so-ambitious) hypothesis is that it might have been a physiological cause. There is no saying one way or another whether God intervened. There are a plethora of ways such experiences could have been had without divine intervention. These things have been documented to happen in people with little or no interest in religion when such physiological prompts are induced in laboratory conditions.

This being the case, we needn't assume divine intervention as a prime hypothesis. It is one hypothesis among many, and a weak one at that.

It seems like a great deal of effort to not refute your point

[vulcanlogician]

Well, I did offer schizophrenia as a possibility. So, I don't blame Klor for arguing against that possibility. In fact, I thought he made some good points in that regard.

But, yeah. My point didn't really depend on it being or not being schizophrenia. It was about physiological causes generally. I wasn't as clear about that as I should have been.