On the lunacy of prayer

[arewethereyet]

You guys are wrong on so many levels, but I can't change your mind. You know nothing about what you're talking about in this thread.

The problem is you can't articulate how anyone here is "wrong", nor do you have the patience and stomach to try and debate.  So you can believe anything you want and you clearly do in your delusional world.  The only real question is why you keep trying to hoist your bullshit on anyone here.

---

Since Ahriman has no stomach for real discussion or debate, I'm going to list a few items that are clearly in play.

#1 - Does prayer do anything in terms of changing reality to meet the prayer of the person asking?
#2 - Does prayer offer the praying person any emotional or mental assistance not associated with the supernatural?
#3 - Is there any form of prayer that is superior to others?
#4 - Do people exaggerate or demonstrate prayer for the sake of image to others?

I have a gift for you -



-you know where to aim it.

[Spongebob]

Definitely.

[slartibartfast]

I get the idea of prayer being bullshit from an atheist perspective but I do not really understand the negative emotional response to other people praying or even prayer requests.

First off, I do not know any religious person who thinks prayer is a substitute for initiative. Religious people pray for guidance before deciding what to do. They request blessing for actions they commit to taking. And they ask for help after they've done all they can, as in "Its in Gods hands now."  Even from a secular perspective, these are just meditation, motivation, and hoping for the best. So what's the problem besides offending antitheist sensibilities? Or maybe the mockery makes some people feel superior.

I see nothing wrong with taking less than 2 minutes of hedging your bets when you are already open to the idea that the universe is richer than it often appears to be.

The problem is that from an Atheist's point of view there is no hedging bets. It would be like someone coming up to you, questioning why you don't believe in Santa Claus and offering to write to Santa on your behalf to put in a good word so you don't miss out on presents this year.


And it's not just offending sensibilities. Christianity stipulates that if you believe in Jesus, you will be a moral, happy, fulfilled person who will go on to live in immortality in the most wonderful place imaginable, however if you don't you won't be any of those things ie. amoral, unfulfilled and ultimately going to hell - definitely not good daughter marrying material.

On the "not substitute for initiative" part, I am sorry, but I have experienced this first hand many times. The guy who came up to me and my wife in the supermarket to pray for her arthritic knee definitely did think that his action was a substitute for initiative. So you can develop your own flavour of "prayer ethic" but the fact is that millions of Christians do pray for sick family members, and not because it causes them to take initiative but because they believe that this increases their loved ones' chance of survival.

[arewethereyet]

I get the idea of prayer being bullshit from an atheist perspective but I do not really understand the negative emotional response to other people praying or even prayer requests.

First off, I do not know any religious person who thinks prayer is a substitute for initiative. Religious people pray for guidance before deciding what to do. They request blessing for actions they commit to taking. And they ask for help after they've done all they can, as in "Its in Gods hands now."  Even from a secular perspective, these are just meditation, motivation, and hoping for the best. So what's the problem besides offending antitheist sensibilities? Or maybe the mockery makes some people feel superior.

I see nothing wrong with taking less than 2 minutes of hedging your bets when you are already open to the idea that the universe is richer than it often appears to be.

The problem is that from an Atheist's point of view there is no hedging bets. It would be like someone coming up to you, questioning why you don't believe in Santa Claus and offering to write to Santa on your behalf to put in a good word so you don't miss out on presents this year.


And it's not just offending sensibilities. Christianity stipulates that if you believe in Jesus, you will be a moral, happy, fulfilled person who will go on to live in immortality in the most wonderful place imaginable, however if you don't you won't be any of those things ie. amoral, unfulfilled and ultimately going to hell - definitely not good daughter marrying material.

On the "not substitute for initiative" part, I am sorry, but I have experienced this first hand many times. The guy who came up to me and my wife in the supermarket to pray for her arthritic knee definitely did think that his action was a substitute for initiative. So you can develop your own flavour of "prayer ethic" but the fact is that millions of Christians do pray for sick family members, and not because it causes them to take initiative but because they believe that this increases their loved ones' chance of survival.

I find it hysterical that a theist will refer to prayer as 'hedging your bets'. Boy that really puts a fine point on it, doesn't it?

It's BS...but I'll do it, just in case it turns out not to be BS.

There's a selling point.

[slartibartfast]

Lol that's not why I did the quote that way, it was for brevity's sake.

Well, if that's true then you failed again.  Removing the member ID does not shorten the post at all if you leave the quote bubble.  Makes you look even dumber.

Prayer is quite often stupid and selfish.  Just one example: the local high school football coach recently won a very close game against an important rival.  Of course the story in the local paper had him praising god and admitting to praying on the sideline late in the game for a turnover or some other big play.  Of all the things in the universe, praying for a high school football team to win a game is the dumbest concept of religion.  I could accept praying that his players don't get hurt or that they learn lessons of good competition, leadership or camaraderie, but not winning the game.  That's a selfish thing to pray for.

And btw, he probably didn't squint his eyes and hold hands while praying.  No one knew he was praying.

Lucky no-one was praying for the other side from the other sideline, otherwise it would have cancelled his prayer out.

[The Grand Nudger]

There's probably at least one kid praying that the whole field goes up in flames with both teams still on it.

[Spongebob]

And it's not just offending sensibilities. Christianity stipulates that if you believe in Jesus, you will be a moral, happy, fulfilled person who will go on to live in immortality in the most wonderful place imaginable, however if you don't you won't be any of those things ie. amoral, unfulfilled and ultimately going to hell - definitely not good daughter marrying material.

On the "not substitute for initiative" part, I am sorry, but I have experienced this first hand many times. The guy who came up to me and my wife in the supermarket to pray for her arthritic knee definitely did think that his action was a substitute for initiative. So you can develop your own flavour of "prayer ethic" but the fact is that millions of Christians do pray for sick family members, and not because it causes them to take initiative but because they believe that this increases their loved ones' chance of survival.

I'm not sure how well aligned this (bold) is with biblical passages.  Our modern concept of happiness and fulfillment seems different than the version described in the bible.

Prayer seems to serve many roles if you review the history of Christianity.  Being thankful is one of those and I have nothing critical to say about that.  We should all be thankful regardless of our spiritual beliefs.  Our lives are but a tenuous blip on reality.  Nature cares nothing for us and would end any one of us in an instant if we happen to be in the wrong place.  Nothing is guaranteed in our life and every day we experience happiness is something to be celebrated (if you value such a thing).  But being thankful can come in many ways and the Christian idea of prayer is but one.  And I've always been amused by the need Christians feel to pray audibly and publicly (often holding hands or raising the hands) when they also claim that god knows what they are thinking.  Wouldn't god know if you were genuinely thankful or concerned for a loved one?

[slartibartfast]

And it's not just offending sensibilities. Christianity stipulates that if you believe in Jesus, you will be a moral, happy, fulfilled person who will go on to live in immortality in the most wonderful place imaginable, however if you don't you won't be any of those things ie. amoral, unfulfilled and ultimately going to hell - definitely not good daughter marrying material.

On the "not substitute for initiative" part, I am sorry, but I have experienced this first hand many times. The guy who came up to me and my wife in the supermarket to pray for her arthritic knee definitely did think that his action was a substitute for initiative. So you can develop your own flavour of "prayer ethic" but the fact is that millions of Christians do pray for sick family members, and not because it causes them to take initiative but because they believe that this increases their loved ones' chance of survival.

I'm not sure how well aligned this (bold) is with biblical passages.  Our modern concept of happiness and fulfillment seems different than the version described in the bible.

Prayer seems to serve many roles if you review the history of Christianity.  Being thankful is one of those and I have nothing critical to say about that.  We should all be thankful regardless of our spiritual beliefs.  Our lives are but a tenuous blip on reality.  Nature cares nothing for us and would end any one of us in an instant if we happen to be in the wrong place.  Nothing is guaranteed in our life and every day we experience happiness is something to be celebrated (if you value such a thing).  But being thankful can come in many ways and the Christian idea of prayer is but one.  And I've always been amused by the need Christians feel to pray audibly and publicly (often holding hands or raising the hands) when they also claim that god knows what they are thinking.  Wouldn't god know if you were genuinely thankful or concerned for a loved one?

I  have no problem with being thankful. Being regularly thankful naturally focuses the mind on the "good" things in your life and strengthens / reinforces positivity. But in the words of Richard: “Isn’t it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?”. My point being it isn't being thankful to God specifically that brings the benefit, but just being mindful / thankful of good things you have in general. I would wager that most Christians would insist that their strength comes from God exclusively.

Your comment re. praying audibly / publicly probably stems in part from the indoctrination process. How does a parent know the child is praying properly and for the right things? How do you "prove" to other Christians that you are praying (and therefore strengthen the communal bond). If everyone always prayed silently and without any physical gestures at all, a lot of the societal / communal "common language" would be lost. 

Your comment also made me think another crazy thought. That which relates to people always looking up when they are talking to / thinking of God. Clearly that comes from the outdated concept that the Earth is flat, infinitely deep and they believed that good things (ie. Heaven, God) must be in the "sky" and bad things (Hell, the Devil) must be within the earth. I don't think that modern Christians still believe that Hell is somehow located within the Earth itself, or God or Heaven are floating in the sky somewhere, but the concept still prevails. The other funny thing is if God IS concentrated more in some areas in the universe than others (and not uniformly distributed) then where? Maybe praying downwards would actually give you the best bang for your buck 

[Spongebob]

Your comment re. praying audibly / publicly probably stems in part from the indoctrination process. How does a parent know the child is praying properly and for the right things? How do you "prove" to other Christians that you are praying (and therefore strengthen the communal bond). If everyone always prayed silently and without any physical gestures at all, a lot of the societal / communal "common language" would be lost. 

Your comment also made me think another crazy thought. That which relates to people always looking up when they are talking to / thinking of God. Clearly that comes from the outdated concept that the Earth is flat, infinitely deep and they believed that good things (ie. Heaven, God) must be in the "sky" and bad things (Hell, the Devil) must be within the earth. I don't think that modern Christians still believe that Hell is somehow located within the Earth itself, or God or Heaven are floating in the sky somewhere, but the concept still prevails. The other funny thing is if God IS concentrated more in some areas in the universe than others (and not uniformly distributed) then where? Maybe praying downwards would actually give you the best bang for your buck 

Yes, the rituals of mass prayer and group prayer are manifestations of what I was talking about, prayer as theater.  Theists of all sorts do this and it boils down to the same reasons.  You want others to see/hear it.

Keep in mind that most Christians bow their head in prayer as a gesture of reverence and perhaps humility.  But closing the eyes, I have no idea what that's about.

[The Grand Nudger]

"You have heard your servant’s prayer — the uttered part of it. I am
commissioned of God to put into words the other part of it — that part which
the pastor — and also you in your hearts — fervently prayed silently. And
ignorantly and unthinkingly? God grant that it was so! You heard these words:
‘Grant us the victory, O Lord our God!’ That is sufficient. The whole of the
uttered prayer is compact into those pregnant words. Elaborations were not
necessary. When you have prayed for victory you have prayed for many
unmentioned results which follow victory — must follow it, cannot help but
follow it. Upon the listening spirit of God the Father fell also the unspoken part
of the prayer. He commandeth me to put it into words. Listen!
"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle —
be Thou near them! With them — in spirit — we also go forth from the sweet
peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear
their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling
fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of
the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay
waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts
of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out
roofless with their little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their
desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer
and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee
for the refuge of the grave and denied it — for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord,
blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy
their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood
of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the
Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are
sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen."

War Prayer, Mark Twain.