Proof and evidence will always equal Science

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Point of order. This is an open forum. Anyone may reply to any post or not, as they choose.

Thanks cosplay moderator.  I didn't tell him he couldn't post or in any way restrict his participation.  So, point of order, shove it up your ass.

 Thank you for your fragrant correction.

I perhaps expressed myself poorly. The OP inferred that one may determine who may answer one's post. I was not aware that was a thing. I was also unaware that I was not permitted to respond to a posts as I see fit, unless I break the rules.

Perhaps extract the bee from your rectum and go forth and multiply. 

[Angrboda]

Thanks cosplay moderator.  I didn't tell him he couldn't post or in any way restrict his participation.  So, point of order, shove it up your ass.

 Thank you for your fragrant correction.

I perhaps expressed myself poorly. The OP inferred that one may determine who may answer one's post. I was not aware that was a thing. I was also unaware that I was not permitted to respond to a posts as I see fit, unless I break the rules.

Perhaps extract the bee from your rectum and go forth and multiply. 

I think the word you're searching for is 'implied', not 'inferred'. And no I didn't. You expressed yourself quite clearly in accusing me of doing something I did not do.

And nobody told you that you were not permitted to respond as you see fit, although you twice seem to have reserved that prerogative for yourself.

You were wrong. You were wrong again. And now all you've succeeded in doing is expending what little patience I had for your bullshit.

Now, fuck off.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

 Thank you for your fragrant correction.

I perhaps expressed myself poorly. The OP inferred that one may determine who may answer one's post. I was not aware that was a thing. I was also unaware that I was not permitted to respond to a posts as I see fit, unless I break the rules.

Perhaps extract the bee from your rectum and go forth and multiply. 

I think the word you're searching for is 'implied', not 'inferred'.  And no I didn't.  You expressed yourself quite clearly in accusing me of doing something I did not do.

And nobody told you that you were not permitted to respond as you see fit, although you twice seem to have reserved that prerogative for yourself.

You were wrong.  You were wrong again.  And now all you've succeeded in doing is expending what little patience I had for your bullshit.

Now, fuck off.

Ohhhhh,  Mea culpa. I was replying to Ahriman.  My bad. Sincere apologies.

---

Right now I'm trying to remove foot from mouth with Angrboda. I fear she may be too annoyed with me .

[Neo-Scholastic]

Meaning is something *humans* (and potentially other conscious creatures) assign to things and events. it isn't something inherent in those things or events.

Well, I agree with that and, oddly to you perhaps, is one of the reasons I remain a Christian. Where I part ways with physical reductionists, is that I do not truly believe intentionality can be so reduced.

[Ferrocyanide]

I'm probably going to regret asking this, but are you saying that metaphysically speaking, chairs aren't evidence for the existence of chairs because physical evidence has no bearing on metaphysics?

I suppose so. A metaphysician wants to know what makes the chair a chair. It's "chairness" so to speak. You won't find "chairness" out there in nature. "Chairness" is completely conceptual... not a physical thing... hence "metaphysical."

You seem to be talking about design in this case.
A design (blueprint) is not a physical thing. It is not made of atoms.
But the actual chair is made of atoms. The collection of atoms is a representation of a chair.

Instead of calling it design, you can call it information as well.

Words are pieces of information as well. They aren’t made of atoms.
However, you can take some ink and put it on paper and you have a representation of the word. The ink and paper is made of atoms.

Music is also information. It is non-physical.
The cassette is a physical representation of the music.

Stories in books, musics, the blueprint for an airplane, a circle, letters and languages and basically anything has a design component and a physical component.

Do stories exist? I would say yes and no. It depends on how you look at it.
Maybe it doesn’t exist as long as it isn’t written on paper or in the mind of a person.
Normally I say no to make it clear to people I make a distinction between information and reality (atoms).

Does a god exist? Yes, in the minds of people. Smurfs exist in the minds of people as well.

The physical reality is very different than a social convention about what is and is not a chair, let alone whether something that is typically not  chair is used as one on some occasion.

For a social convention to exist, you need a population of humans and humans are made of atoms.

[zwanzig]

Yeah, I don't understand equating god with metaphysics or mental states. It's almost like you're admitting god is made up inside someone's head and only exists there. It was a nice thesis for Hogfather though.

[brewer]

How do you know that she is a witch?

Build a chair out of her!

[Jehanne]

Meaning is something *humans* (and potentially other conscious creatures) assign to things and events. it isn't something inherent in those things or events.

Well, I agree with that and, oddly to you perhaps, is one of the reasons I remain a Christian. Where I part ways with physical reductionists, is that I do not truly believe intentionality can be so reduced.

Where do physicialists claim that?

[Ferrocyanide]

Who exactly is doing that? No one. That's who.
That is a different issue. I am replying to somethibg else. No one thinks a logical demonstration conjours god into existence.

I think you misunderstood the point that brewer was trying to make.
Arguments don’t take the place of evidence. Arguments are just that...arguments.

In science and in the courtroom (at least if the case is major such as murder), you better have good evidence and you use that to “connect the dots”.
In neither of these domains do people claim that some alien or a ghost did it.
Why do you think that is so?

[Ferrocyanide]

Thank you for the clarification. I can respect that position while at the same time it seems very counter-intuitive to me. Kinda of like if-the-only-tool-you-have-is-a-hammer kinda way. Most of life's experiences are outside the domain of science, such as the obligations we have to future generations and also only to ourselves, the honor we have for our ancestors, etc. The world of meaning and significance is closed to atheists, though I can tell that some of you still see the Light :-)  

I mean, the "no evidence" bromide is so lame. I don't believe most of you are such sticklers about evidence for everything else in your lives. Something about other people believing in God, which is something normal and basic to many people,...something about people believing in God really bothers a "no evidence" heckler. There's a whole host of basic concepts that most normal people take for granted (like "the Past exists" and "Numbers are immaterial.") and for which there isn't the level of  "evidence" equal to the one demanded by sticklers about evidence for God. Let me tell you what I consider evidence. Evidence is that which is evident. And there are lots of things that are evident about the world...such as the multiple-realizability of meaning...that suggest a totality...a Cosmos, if you will (although the Gnostics called it the Pleroma),...that is much richer, and meaningful than mundane reductionist thinking allows. :-P

Let’s talk about emotions.

My guess is that if you think that you have an obligation to future generations, then this has to do with feelings/emotions.
My guess is that you are a survivalist.
One goal of christianity is to survive death and to avoid hell and to go to paradise.
In paradise, the streets are paved with gold, emeralds and such. It doesn’t exactly spell it out in the Bible, but you can find lines that point to it.
You will also live disease free and see your loved ones, etc etc.
Basically, it is about human emotions.

Hell is about getting burned and tortured and getting covered with element 16.
Basically, it is about human emotions.
Element 16 is suppose to be an antiseptic, a microbe killer. The jews believed that it also cleanses sins. It’s a dual action product.

The logic behind the authors of the Bible is that you will chose heaven, you wish to avoid hell  ===> therefore, you will join their religion.
They know how the machine works. You are the machine. They know what you know. They know that fear will work on you and that sweet stories will attract you.

As for the part about future generations, it is part of the programming of many species to protect their young.
This is about survival, it is about empathy towards your look alikes.
My guess is, we have quite a bit in common with all animals, and so, they have the same emotions as us.

I mean, the "no evidence" bromide is so lame. I don't believe most of you are such sticklers about evidence for everything else in your lives. Something about other people believing in God, which is something normal and basic to many people,...something about people believing in God really bothers a "no evidence" heckler. There's a whole host of basic concepts that most normal people take for granted (like "the Past exists" and "Numbers are immaterial.") and for which there isn't the level of "evidence" equal to the one demanded by sticklers about evidence for God. Let me tell you what I consider evidence. Evidence is that which is evident.

Bromide?

You are correct. I do not give an equal treatment to all claims. It’s the same in courts as well. Some cases, such as murder trial, require a certain amount of evidence while in small claims court, you don’t always need strong evidence (just testimony will do).
If someone tells me he ate a ham sandwich yesterday, I don’t ask for evidence.

But, we aren’t talking about a sandwich. We are talking about spending hours reading the Bible, spending hours at a church, giving money to priests, building billions of dollars worth of buildings. We need to make damn sure that it makes sense.

Do I want a society that worships none sense? Nope.
Are you really telling me, Neo-Scholastic, that it doesn’t matter to you whether something like that is true or false?

I have memories about the past and there are history books, videos, photos, newspaper articles from reputable sources that the 20 th, 19 th, 18 th century happened.
The further back you go, the less organized humans seem to be. It looks like there aren’t newspaper companies and journalists but there have been a few humans that have recorded events. It is part of the human desires to chronicle events bc they want to preserve a memory.

What’s so odd about that?

Numbers are immaterial: Yes, they are immaterial. What about it? We have a few millions books that use numbers. mathematics is useful to get our work done.
Why would I ask for evidence for numbers? That makes no sense.

And there are lots of things that are evident about the world...such as the multiple-realizability of meaning...that suggest a totality...a Cosmos, if you will (although the Gnostics called it the Pleroma),...that is much richer, and meaningful than mundane reductionist thinking allows. :-P”

What’s a multiple-realizability of meaning?