Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: March 28, 2024, 2:38 pm

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Can America ever truly pay for its sins?
#51
RE: Can America ever truly pay for its sins?
(December 8, 2021 at 11:25 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: That's about as clear as any response could be. You're not interested in the fact that you've been laundering crises manufactured by great replacement nuts.

They tell you this shit, and you believe that what they say is true.

I haven't laundered anything, least of all the "great replacement nuts". You tried to expand the definition of white supremacy to include things that aren't necessarily white supremacy. This is your list of five:

(December 8, 2021 at 11:25 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Discrimination. The white man is being reverse racism-d
Rights abrogation. The white mans rights and protections are being eroded, his wealth transferred to non whites.
Stigmatization and the denial of pride. The country is being slandered.
Loss of self esteem. The white man is being villainized.
Racial Elimination. The white man is being breed out.

We can go over them again in great detail, I doubt I'll convince you, this is mainly for other readers, so:

1. Discrimination. The white man is being reverse racism-d

This one is pretty much a fact, just as there is white on black discrimination, there is black on white discrimination. But even if there wasn't a single case of this happening for a whole year, it wouldn't prove that the person making this claim is racist or a white supremacist. People can be wrong about stuff. Context matters, if Richard Spencer or his ilk are bring it up then yeah, it's a safe bet that this is an agenda-driven statement. If random Joe says it, it might not be. Context. Context. Context.

2. Rights abrogation. The white mans rights and protections are being eroded, his wealth transferred to non whites

This is often exaggerated, obviously you can extend most types of rights (especially negative rights or negative liberty) to as many people as you want. But there are calls for reparations.

What do you think reparations are in practice? It is a net transfer, through taxation (which is theft by the way), from whites to blacks. This isn't racist to point out, it's just math, not understanding this makes you financially illiterate. The government doesn't make any money of their own, they can only print it (which dilutes the value of your own money) or tax people for it. Now, sure there are some details to go over. Obviously, if you're not earning income then you don't pay it and if you're a high-earning black man you might actually get less money in reparations than you paid in taxes. And it would be the government committing this net transfer of wealth, so it would be stupid to hate black people for it even if it did happen.

I'm sure white supremacists will oppose it because they're going to oppose anything to do with non-whites, but opposing reparations isn't an inherently racist or white supremacist stance.

If you still oppose this, then feel free to show me the numbers. In your view, how many people would get paid reparations and what amount? It is all black people at 100k? 10% of them at 10k? Gimme your numbers. We can then calculate what the tax budern is as we know what the total population is.

3. Stigmatization and the denial of pride. The country is being slandered.

This is a fact and it's not white supremacist. The claim that the US is being criticized unfairly says absolutely nothing about race. Both racists and non-racists can believe this statement to be true.

Keep in mind that many blacks also oppose the woke talking points and it's not just a few of them.

4. Loss of self esteem. The white man is being villainized.

This again is a fact, I'm not claiming to know to what extent this is happening but I've seen it multiple times to know this isn't an isolated event. I know for a fact that you can use racial slurs without getting banned on PZ Myers' blog for example, just as long as the racial slur is directed to whites. I know it's common for various authors and academics to go on tirades about whites that wouldn't be tolerated if they were directed against any other group.

And you wonder why I want nothing to do with the woke crowd?

5. Racial Elimination. The white man is being breed out.

I've so many versions of this that you're going to have to be more specific.

I don't find any of them to have merit but I'm not going to attribute racist intent to what might simply be stupidity and bogus demographic growth models that assume present trends to continue indefinitely.

If they're claiming that there's a plot by black people to outbreed white people, then yeah that's both stupid and racist, no question about it.

If they're claiming that world elites are trying to get rid of whites, that's a wild conspiracy theory, but it might be coming from stupidity rather than racism. Probably both, but it depends on exactly how the person feels about non-whites.

If it's just demographic projections it might not have a malicious intent. Personally, I know predictions become less and less reliable the more decades you try to predict what will happen, so there you go, an argument you can use without calling people racist.

Quote:Will using whatever word you prefer stop them from disenfranchising those people they believe are taking over their country, people with no legitimate claim to political office or representation?

You're going to have to explain this one to me because I don't see the evidence of blacks being disenfrachised. Is there discrimination sure, with 330M people there's bound to be some, but it goes both ways and blacks have the same rights now. If anything there's probably a lot of positive discrimination because Americans are scared to death of being called racists.

It's getting to a point where the media just makes stuff up.

Was Derek Chauvin a racist or just a violent bully?
Reply
#52
RE: Can America ever truly pay for its sins?
CRT is a non item. A thing that isn't happening, invented by people who expect you to be motivated by great replacement theories. In this case, specifically, the victimization of whites. You satisfied their expectations, here you are, bitching about a non thing as though it explained some other thing..which, even though it's a real event, is somehow turned into something entirely fictitious in your mind. This is you, being lead by the nose, by things that aren't true. Why did it work? Well, you offer an explanation in your response to the five pillars of contemporary white supremacy.

You believe that number 1 is a fact. It is not...but so what, you think it is.

You believe that number 2 is a fact. It is not...but so what, you think it is.

You believe that number 3 is a fact. It is not, but so what, you think it is.

You believe that number 4 is a fact. It is not, but so what, you think it is.

You waffle on number 5.....and I'm guessing that you're holding out some premise whereby you can argue that it's both true and not neccessarrily racist. Some will..some wont...so what.

You believe, explicitly, that four out of the five pillars of contemporary white supremacy are true. I suspect you also believe in the fifth, as you prepare to launch some doomed argument that to believe in the fifth is not racist.

What should I call a person who believes on the basis of whatever bullshit they've been consuming that at least four out of the five pillars of contemporary white supremacy are settled facts..and....perhaps ungenerously but I'd contend completely accurately....five..all of them..that the entire organizing propaganda of contemporary white supremacy..is just true? All settled facts?

This is why I told you to pound sand. I'm not going to spend alot of time arguing with you that they are not facts, I'm just going to point out that you obviously, demonstrably, and inarguably believe them to be facts, by your own voluntary admission. That you have consumed white supremacist propaganda, deemed it to be factually true, and are now disseminating that propaganda here, actively. Call yourself anything you like.

It doesn't matter what you call yourself. Or at least, it doesn't matter with respect to what you are. Between you and I, though, I have more respect for people who just own their bullshit unapologetically. I was a full on racist - I still love and respect the people who lead me to that, and what lead me out was the incongruity between their (and my) overt support and beliefs and the strain of garbage we have here and now, espoused by you...over..and over...and over.... I literally couldn't be a white supremacist anymore, initially, because I realized that all of you mewling and unremarkably white dipshits believed that the untermensch were even capable of victimizing us. I didn't want to be associated with race traitors and defeatists like you.

How ironic is that?

(December 8, 2021 at 1:26 pm)ToTheMoon Wrote: You're going to have to explain this one to me because I don't see the evidence of blacks being disenfrachised. Is there discrimination sure, with 330M people there's bound to be some, but it goes both ways and blacks have the same rights now. If anything there's probably a lot of positive discrimination because Americans are scared to death of being called racists.

It's getting to a point where the media just makes stuff up.

Was Derek Chauvin a racist or just a violent bully?

Yet another clear demonstration of exactly who you get your info from.  That minorities are being explicitly disenfrnchised isn't even an article of discontent in the us. It's the promise required to win a primary for one of our two parties...currently undergoing a purity purge, based on how well they very publicly satisfy that demand.

In answer to your question..neither.  Derek Chauvin the individual was neither particularly racist, nor particularly violent.  He simply existed in a space that encourages violently racist outcomes as a consequence of it's historic organization.  OMG...real CRT........

You're a lost cause on the social front, already a committed disseminator of white supremacist propaganda. Fact. Nothing for me to do about that now, the work is already done..as I said before, all that confronts you, like anyone else, is what you intend to do about those things you believe to be facts.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#53
RE: Can America ever truly pay for its sins?
CRT is not a thing except for the fact that you can look it up and find many proponents of it, including at least one in this topic.

Who made you the arbiter of what the "pillars of white supremacy" are? White supremacy just means that you believe whites are better than everyone else. Anything else you're trying to do is just the genetic fallacy. Racists probably drink water as well, your point?

I've explained my position in detail and I believe that it's a lot more nuanced than you care to admit and that it doesn't come from a position of racism. What part of what I said do you think is false?
Reply
#54
RE: Can America ever truly pay for its sins?
I'm not the arbiter on anything, I'm relaying to you the observations of holstein and miller, going back to the 90s', and since elaborated upon.

You have explained your position in detail..the problem is that your explanation of your position is entirely fact free..and, instead, revolves around the manufactured issues of explicit american racists.

What are you going to do about that? Argue with me..again, that the explicit american racists have it right, that the shit they say is just a fact? Go ahead?

Or...heres a revolutionary idea, just stop pussyfooting around and tell me what is so important to you, as a romanian, in romania, that you make common cause with the rationalizations of american white supremacy? I garauntee that you don't -have- to saddle yourself with white supremacy to make that case..it's just laziness and convenience on your part that you have. As ever, and as I very obviously indicated to you....I'm not the kind of sucker who thinks it's useful to argue white supremacy with a white supremacist, but..if you want to understand how you've made it here to publicly say stupid and untrue shit about the state of affairs in a foreign country..... to strangers from that country...... online....I can help you with that.

I know exactly how an idiot like you ends up in place like this, as you are. I used to produce idiots like you. People aren't all that complicated in mere reality. What if I told you, for example..that the american white supremacists you make common cause with are, in fact, communists, and not just communists...but stalinists? Does the contemplation of that possibility change how you choose to disseminate their propaganda, romanian?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#55
RE: Can America ever truly pay for its sins?
(December 8, 2021 at 2:52 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I'm not the arbiter on anything, I'm relaying to you the observations of holstein and miller, going back to the 90s', and since elaborated upon.

You know they can be wrong, right?

(December 8, 2021 at 2:52 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: You have explained your position in detail..the problem is that your explanation of your position is entirely fact free..and, instead, revolves around the manufactured issues of explicit american racists.

You're free to explain what is fact free. Is everything fact free? For example, are you saying that there is 0 discrimination against whites for being white in the US? Do you want me to start giving you FBI statistics on hate crimes?

Are you saying that reparations would not amount to a net transfer of wealth from whites to blacks? If not, show me the math. Pick your assumptions on how many people would benefit from this, what they would be paid, I'll quickly show you what the average tax burden would be on every man, woman and child in the US. I know that you probably don't take property rights seriously, but I do.

Are you saying whites are not vilified by the far left? Tell me, how is it possible that you can use racial slurs like the h or c words on PZ Myers' blog without a single person calling it out? Are you saying that America isn't vilified excessively for its past when there's plenty of evidence of other countries being worse around the same period?

(December 8, 2021 at 2:52 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: What are you going to do about that? Argue with me..again, that the explicit american racists have it right, that the shit they say is just a fact? Go ahead?

That's just a lie. When did I say they "have it right". The core of what they believe in (i.e. that blacks shouldn't have equal rights or shouldn't even be in the same country as whites or that whites shouldn't associate with black people) is complete crap.

And if to some degree my views overlap with "American racists" that's just the cost of doing business, following the evidence where it leads. You dig deep enough you're going to find at least one point of view that overlaps with anything, including the woke. After all, not a fan of police brutality, or mass incarceration, or too much social conservatism, or mistreating blacks for being black. Where I disagree on these issues is mainly in the details and tactical stuff. One might mistake me for a social justice warrior in another context. Name me any ideological camp that is absolutely wrong about absolutely everything? It's not a thing, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

(December 8, 2021 at 2:52 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Or...heres a revolutionary idea, just stop pussyfooting around and tell me what is so important to you, as a romanian, in romania, that you make common cause with the rationalizations of american white supremacy? I garauntee that you don't -have- to saddle yourself with white supremacy to make that case..it's just laziness and convenience on your part that you have.

I can't answer loaded questions, but I can sum up why a Romanian would be interested in American politics. This is not as uncommon as it seems.
1. NATO parternship
2. business interests (and it doesn't help that the woke are overwhelmingly critical of capitalism either given their Marxist roots)
3. trends that become popular in America tend to spread elsewhere as well, if America adopts bad ideas, it's probably going to affect the entire world sooner or later
Reply
#56
RE: Can America ever truly pay for its sins?
(December 4, 2021 at 7:42 pm)T.J. Wrote: When I mention sins I'm talking about the fact that hundreds of years ago the people who came to this country slaughtered the people who were here first and took their land. Later they enslaved the blacks, treated women like property and wouldn't even allow them to vote until as soon as 1920. Sending the Japanese people into camps after the attack at Pearl Harbor. And I'm sure the list just gets bigger and bigger.

Is there anyway for America to truly confront its past and change for the better or is it just too great a wound to heal?

Discuss.

I'm going to skip over the intermediate posts (I don't want to talk about white supremacy), and just reply to the OP.

Every generation does bad things, either out of fear, wrong-belief (i.e religion or bad "science"), ignorance, or greed.

All we can do is create a framework whereby everyone can succeed and have a decent live, regardless of what happened to their great grandparents.  The idea that I am libel for atrocities of the past, or that I personally benefit from them today, is ludicrous. 

If someone is disenfranchised today because of continuing or recent systemic discrimination, that is bad, and needs fixing.  It doesn't mean I personally benefit from it.  I hate the idea of "white privilege", as if I got everything in life because I'm white.  My parents were not rich.  We lived in a small bungalow in a small town.  I worked hard to get where I am, and if someone else is being prevented from that opportunity, that needs to be addressed.

I reject "race" as an object of identity, and I reject "ethnic origin" as an object of identity.  My ancestors are Scottish, and I don't give a darn, except for a mild interest in Scotch.  Culture is a real thing, but it is fluid, and changes with each generation.  There is no point defining your existence by it, even though we feel more comfortable in a culture we are used to.

I do believe in liberal "ideas".  Democracy, human rights, personal freedoms (and some degree societal responsibility) are things that cross cultural lines, and are worth fighting for.  Without them, all the whining about "identity" means nothing.
Reply
#57
RE: Can America ever truly pay for its sins?
You're "cost of doing business" is why you're a full on white supremacist.  Go fuck yourself.  No one has to suffer that to make money.

Again, I ask..what is important to you...as a romanian, that you make common cause with explicit american racists...?

Should be simple.  Just tell us the thing.

(December 8, 2021 at 4:12 pm)ToTheMoon Wrote: You're free to explain what is fact free. Is everything fact free? For example, are you saying that there is 0 discrimination against whites for being white in the US? Do you want me to start giving you FBI statistics on hate crimes?



Correct.  There is zero penalty for being white in these united states of america. Go fuck yourself if you mistakenly believe otherwise. Go ahead, give me fbi stats. What the fuck is wrong with you?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#58
RE: Can America ever truly pay for its sins?
(December 8, 2021 at 4:18 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: You're "cost of doing business" is why you're a full on white supremacist.  Go fuck yourself.  No one has to suffer that to make money.

While I have business interests in the US, that's not what I meant. This was a figure of speech in this paragraph, following the evidence where it leads. Do you want to try to debunk my points?

If I told you that white supremacists (real ones to be clear) drink water are you going to disavow water?

(December 8, 2021 at 4:18 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Again, I ask..what is important to you...as a romanian, that you make common cause with explicit american racists...?

I do not, they hate people who think like me. They see a potential ally because I'm not woke or "politically correct", but get frustrated because they can't convince me to hate black people or to refuse to associate with them.

Like I said, I can accept that racism (in its dictionary definition) is bad and still believe that the woke's tactics of "ending racism" are completely ineffective and even counter-productive garbage.

EDIT: Maybe you can explain why it is that you can't simply treat people fairly (color-blind even) without subscribing to all this disdainful nonsense from (mainly Marxist) radical activists?
Reply
#59
RE: Can America ever truly pay for its sins?
American racists dont hate people who think like you? You've been telling us that you think like an american racist?

What the fuck is wrong with you...what happened to you....?

Just cut to the chase you boring piece of shit. What did the non whites do to you, blow it, give us the moneyshot.

God forfend that you believe racist shit even though you're totally not-a-racist....™.....that would be impossibru......
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#60
RE: Can America ever truly pay for its sins?
Quote:Correct.  There is zero penalty for being white in these united states of america. Go fuck yourself if you mistakenly believe otherwise.  Go ahead, give me fbi stats.  What the fuck is wrong with you?


Okay, 2019:

755 offenses of anti-white hate crime in 666 separate incidents
2314 offenses of anti-black hate crime in 1930 separate incidents
676 offenses of anti-Hispanic hate crime in 527 separate incidents


This is merely the stuff that's serious enough to be reported, statistically speaking there's probably more. But the woke left won't even call this racism because (they think) whites have privilege. Are you still confused as to why I think the woke left is counter-productive to opposing racism?

Zero penalty for being white? You're wrong by a factor of... well, not possible to even calculate. So let's just say you're completely wrong.

And if you mean there's zero penalty legally for being white, the same applies to being black. It is perfectly legal to be black.
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  At what point is America no longer a safe place for me to live? TaraJo 41 3715 July 16, 2022 at 8:38 pm
Last Post: TaraJo
  America. Worse than North Korea. deepend 195 6774 March 26, 2022 at 2:05 pm
Last Post: TaraJo
  Can Japan Ever Truly Pay for it' s Sins? onlinebiker 29 1137 December 7, 2021 at 5:24 pm
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  Ayn Rand blamed for current state of America Foxaèr 61 2872 June 24, 2021 at 6:17 pm
Last Post: no one
  The Republican America Foxaèr 19 1077 November 23, 2020 at 3:56 pm
Last Post: Anomalocaris
  Make America Nice Again Secular Elf 53 3482 November 9, 2020 at 6:20 am
Last Post: BrianSoddingBoru4
  Police in USA arent racist, its just American culture is all Ramus932 10 762 June 14, 2020 at 1:49 am
Last Post: Zepp
  [Serious] The Mental Illness Crisis in America T.J. 9 1105 August 19, 2019 at 12:03 am
Last Post: AFTT47
  Equal pay for women's soccer or no Fed funding bill brewer 55 4631 August 4, 2019 at 7:25 am
Last Post: BrianSoddingBoru4
  Anyone Else in America See Your Taxes Go Up? DeistPaladin 17 2263 April 12, 2019 at 2:48 pm
Last Post: RobbyPants



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)