What makes people irrational thinkers?

[polymath257]

Epistemic hubris?

I created an entire thread for the purpose of giving you guys the opportunity to make a case for your epistemology and demonstrate its efficacy. Seems like people abandoned ship the second there was even the slightest challenge or request for clarification of some of those epistemic principles used to get to god.

Are you referring to the Tooth Fairy thread? 


It's pretty optimistic to think that we're going to settle the Nominalism vs. Idealism debate on a thread, since it's one of the longest-running debates in the history of philosophy. 

I guess I don't feel an obligation to stand and fight when I know it's not going to finish. The Stanford page I linked to outlines the whole problem better than any one of us can do. It would be rude of me to say "go read this and come back when you understand it," since I only understand a little bit of it myself. But it shows how big the issue is and how unsuited it is, finally, to an informal setting like this one. 

On one hand, I think it's important for each of us to work through the issues ourselves, since we can't get the full grasp of the issues just by reading -- we have to engage personally. At the same time, every one of us here (myself very much included) is an amateur who's just above beginner's level, at best. At some point we realize that we have to go away and read a bunch of books if we want to do a good job. 

Polymath is passionate about his view of things, and he does a very good job of explaining his position. Maybe he doesn't do a splendid job of understanding differing viewpoints. At some point those of us who aren't as sure of his position as he is have to decide if we want to spend a large part of our day explaining why he may not be as justified as he supposes. 

I appreciate this venue as a place to work through the issues, but I hope you'll understand that nobody, given real life (I rode in an ambulance yesterday), is going to be able to give these enormous philosophical issues the full time attention required to make any progress.  Chipping away over years and years has helped me understand some things.

And I may not be as sure of my position as it comes across. I have read and, I think, understood a number of sources that disagree with my overall viewpoint.

For example, in the Hart book, he starts to loose credibility when he starts his name-calling. Saying that anyone that opposed his views must be delusional, while perhaps fair game, isn't likely to advance his actual argument.

Also, misunderstanding what the materialist position is doesn't help either. Whenever he describes matter as 'inert' or 'lifeless', he shows just how little he really understands about the physicalist position. Matter interacts with other matter. In fact, that is often how material things are *defined*: in terms of their interaction.

There are also places where he simply dismisses other viewpoints as inadequate even though it is clear he doesn't quite grasp those viewpoints (again, possibly fair turnabout, but not conducive to good argumentation). He  takes it as a given that consciousness cannot be explained in a physicalist worldview. I happen to disagree. In fact, I don't see a 'hard problem' of consciousness at all: only a 'soft problem'. Again, I don't ultimately think it is because I don't understand his position. I simply disagree with it for a variety of reasons (which I can go into if desired).

When I ask for clarification, this is as much because I had noticed these issues in my previous reading and would like an intelligent person to explain how my concerns are NOT valid.

I am accustomed to using logic and reason professionally (as a research mathematician) and have learned that it is very common to have seemingly valid arguments invalidated by imprecise definitions. I can give numerous examples in mathematics, let alone physics and other areas of study. Lack of precision is frequently the place where logical errors occur. Bad assumptions, especially ones that suit some intuition, are another place where things can go badly wrong.

Also, there is a trope in mathematics that the most likely place to have an error of reasoning is after the word 'clearly'. This is true for other areas of study as well.

[emjay]

...
I appreciate this venue as a place to work through the issues, but I hope you'll understand that nobody, given real life (I rode in an ambulance yesterday), is going to be able to give these enormous philosophical issues the full time attention required to make any progress.  Chipping away over years and years has helped me understand some things.

Hey Belacqua. Do you mind if we call it a day on our discussion? I mean it's been interesting and I think I have a better feel for your position, so thank you for that, but I'm just starting to get a bit tired/stressed in this thread, so I'd like to start winding down.

But I will say, in response to this bit in your post to LFC... and at the end of your other post to me; I know this now... how big an undertaking learning about Five Ways really is and frankly if I never see the word 'predicate' again in the context of Aristotle it will be too soon It's just so complicated to me and simply will not parse. I know Bertrand Russell has something to say about it, in objection to the Five Ways, but I have not read that yet, and would guess it would be way above my current ability to comprehend. And it also came to me as a surprise when you said in your post to me, that you're not actually that much interested in the Five Ways, so I'm sorry that I misjudged you on that because I had the impression it was your forte and primary interest. Anyway, suffice it to say I think I've learned enough about it to have a good enough gist what it's about, but an expert on it, I will never be.

[Belacqua]

"Watch your tongue. Glorify your own faith and you do it harm. Praise other faiths, don’t slight them. Mix with others, learn from them. This way you honour your own faith and benefit every other."

Third century leader of India thought this was such good advice that he had it carved in stone.

[emjay]

"Watch your tongue. Glorify your own faith and you do it harm. Praise other faiths, don’t slight them. Mix with others, learn from them. This way you honour your own faith and benefit every other."

Third century leader of India thought this was such good advice that he had it carved in stone.

Well that kind of reminds me of something I believe the Buddha said... something like you should be open to wisdom from any source, thus being open to different religions etc. I can't remember the exacts words at all obviously but that was the general gist of it. When I try to tell my dad about that, as an example of what I consider a very open minded and progressive religion, even at its inception, I still get more pushback than I do when I talk about atheism... which is a shame, because to me it is just an atheist philosophy, not a religion. Ie I do not believe in any superstition or reincarnation etc, but I appreciate the philosophy of Buddhism... and yes, find comfort in it; ie when I'm depressed I often turn to YouTube to watch a talk by a monk, usually my favourite, Ajahn Brahm, and it really helps puts things into perspective.

[Belacqua]

"Watch your tongue. Glorify your own faith and you do it harm. Praise other faiths, don’t slight them. Mix with others, learn from them. This way you honour your own faith and benefit every other."

Third century leader of India thought this was such good advice that he had it carved in stone.

Well that kind of reminds me of something I believe the Buddha said... something like you should be open to wisdom from any source, thus being open to different religions etc. I can't remember the exacts words at all obviously but that was the general gist of it. When I try to tell my dad about that, as an example of what I consider a very open minded and progressive religion, even at its inception, I still get more pushback than I do when I talk about atheism... which is a shame, because to me it is just an atheist philosophy, not a religion. Ie I do not believe in any superstition or reincarnation etc, but I appreciate the philosophy of Buddhism... and yes, find comfort in it; ie when I'm depressed I often turn to YouTube to watch a talk by a monk, usually my favourite, Ajahn Brahm, and it really helps puts things into perspective.

Well spotted! The leader I was quoting was Ashoka, who spread Buddhism in India. 

I should have said third century BC. I was only off by a few centuries. 

I'll look up Ajahn Brahm.

[LadyForCamus]

Are you insinuating that only the highly philosophically educated, intellectually superior, and vastly-read of society can reason their way to god? What about average-intelligence, time-constrained shmucks like me who might never make it through the Stanford.edu entry on Plato and physicalist? We just have to take it on faith?

You shouldn't take anything on faith.

Nor should we assume that the arguments are easy.

I’m sorry. Tbh, pregnancy hormones have hold of me, and I’ve been quite the impatient bitch lately (just ask my kids). You’re free to tell me at any time to chill tf out and go read something. That’s never bad advice. 😜

[The Grand Nudger]

Well, shit, if we're taking the word of eastern traditions as gospel...

The whole Hindu system is a contrivance of the priesthood to secure a means of livelihood for themselves.

Brhaspati

[emjay]

Well that kind of reminds me of something I believe the Buddha said... something like you should be open to wisdom from any source, thus being open to different religions etc. I can't remember the exacts words at all obviously but that was the general gist of it. When I try to tell my dad about that, as an example of what I consider a very open minded and progressive religion, even at its inception, I still get more pushback than I do when I talk about atheism... which is a shame, because to me it is just an atheist philosophy, not a religion. Ie I do not believe in any superstition or reincarnation etc, but I appreciate the philosophy of Buddhism... and yes, find comfort in it; ie when I'm depressed I often turn to YouTube to watch a talk by a monk, usually my favourite, Ajahn Brahm, and it really helps puts things into perspective.

Well spotted! The leader I was quoting was Ashoka, who spread Buddhism in India. 

I should have said third century BC. I was only off by a few centuries. 

I'll look up Ajahn Brahm.

Ajahn Brahm was just someone I could easily relate to, as he's just a pasty Brit like me lol... a Londoner (not like me)... who joined the Buddhist Society of Western Australia. My sister introduced me to his videos (as well as introducing me to binge watching Netflix ), when I went to stay with her for a while, and we used to watch it together and go out for walks in the sun to meditate, and even went to a couple of monasteries (I think they were monasteries) to meditate. It was a great time, I miss it.

[polymath257]

Well that kind of reminds me of something I believe the Buddha said... something like you should be open to wisdom from any source, thus being open to different religions etc. I can't remember the exacts words at all obviously but that was the general gist of it. When I try to tell my dad about that, as an example of what I consider a very open minded and progressive religion, even at its inception, I still get more pushback than I do when I talk about atheism... which is a shame, because to me it is just an atheist philosophy, not a religion. Ie I do not believe in any superstition or reincarnation etc, but I appreciate the philosophy of Buddhism... and yes, find comfort in it; ie when I'm depressed I often turn to YouTube to watch a talk by a monk, usually my favourite, Ajahn Brahm, and it really helps puts things into perspective.

Well spotted! The leader I was quoting was Ashoka, who spread Buddhism in India. 

I should have said third century BC. I was only off by a few centuries. 

I'll look up Ajahn Brahm.

I was wondering if you referring to him.

Asoka converted to Buddhism after killing off all of his enemies. He was ruthless until he won, then promoted peace.

But of the major world religions, Buddhism was, at least initially, one of the best.

[Belacqua]

impatient

I'm bitchy half the time and I don't even have those hormones. 

You're one of the best on this forum, for sure.