Russia and Ukraine

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.

I'll be interested to see people's reactions 'If' this whole affair 'Fizzles out', as it were.

It will still be a tradgedy for those killed and maimed. Horrible for the damage incurred.... BUT...

Watching people's reaction should Russia get kicked hard enough to 'Eat crow'.

Interesting times indeed.

[The Architect Of Fate]

Uhem, The nukes together with invading Ukraine actually keeps them from being run over roughshod.   It’s a package.   

We, not Russia, made it a package.

Yeah because it's like Russia has no ambitions of its own or anything .....

[arewethereyet]

you will always think you are right, and reality won’t ever care.

Bold mine - -  bwahahahahaha

[Deesse23]

And here we are, with an armchair Machiavellist, wo is enjoying freedom and pluralism from the safety of his desk somehwere in California, pontificating about how the "necessity" of war, murder and oppression trumps international law and how the people of Ukraine (and everyone else) should just accept being invaded, because......it was "necessary" for a dictator to do so.

How about you move to some baltic state and wait until Putin invades you, taking away all thats valuable to you, because.........its necessary for him? Reality, and me, certainly wont give a shit about you, thats for sure.

[The Architect Of Fate]

Invading countries and instigating wars of aggression because your neighbors don't want to be in your geopolitical sphere of influence anymore is never "necessary"

[Anomalocaris]

And here we are, with an armchair Machiavellist, wo is enjoying freedom and pluralism from the safety of his desk somehwere in California, pontificating about how the "necessity" of war, murder and oppression trumps international law and how the people of Ukraine (and everyone else) should just accept being invaded, because......it was "necessary" for a dictator to do so.

How about you move to some baltic state and wait until Putin invades you, taking away all thats valuable to you, because.........its necessary for him? Reality, and me, certainly wont give a shit about you, thats for sure.

Ha!

The “Machiavellist” would be the side that close off all possibly exist ramps for Russia in Jan and Feb, knowing Russia would have no other recourse but to invade.   They did this knowing what it would mean to Ukraine,  they did this implying to the Ukrainians they would prevent Russian invasion but have neither the ability or the intention to do so, so that the Ukrainians would not be tempted to come to an independent accommodation with Russia and forestall the invasion.

They did this for a simple reason that they realized they over reached by pushing NATO boundary all they way to Russia Border and can’t stop Russia from pushing back the boundary of NATO, but they wanted to exacting the highest possible political price from Russia for arriving at the same inevitable end result.   They maneuvers the Ukrainian into to become futile cannon fodder to be sacrificed purely for the opportunity to generate outage and provide reason for sanction, without having realistic hope of achieving something for Ukrainians themselves.


But since we are already here, I will state the bluntly obvious that everyone bemoaning ukraine is too foolishly head in sank to seem to understand:,   The whole point of sacrificing some is so overall, the suffering is less.

You should ask why is it that those who made it necessary to sacrifice a few in order reduce the overall suffering, and why those are not sanctioned, while those who did the thing those people made necessary are sanctioned.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Imma go ahead and reverse my earlier position that 'Putin has already won this one'. The invasion of Ukraine is a failure on every imaginable level.

Boru

[Anomalocaris]

I wouldn’t be so sure about that.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I wouldn’t be so sure about that.

Well, let's take a look.

Putin's pretexts for the invasion:

-Protect Russian lives: failure

-Stop the eastward expansion of NATO: failure (Sweden and Finland)

Putin's goals for the invasion:

-Restoration of 'Greater Russia' as Russia/Belarus/Ukraine: failure (significant numbers of ethnic Russians in Ukraine no longer support Russia)

-Fracture NATO: abject failure (the invasion has sped up healing the splits in NATO caused by Trump)

Putin's expectations for the invasion:

-It would be done in 100 hours (his promise to the oligarchs): failure

-The world would do nothing: epic failure

-It would serve as a showcase for Russia's military might: failed in terms of morale, logistics, planning and execution

The above aside, can Russia eventually take Ukraine? Probably. But there's a huge difference between taking a country and holding a country. Putin doesn't have the military or economic resources to hold Ukraine in the face of determined opposition by the West. The invasion has already cratered the Russian economy. Sadly, though, Putin's megalomania won't ever allow him to withdraw. Over the next few years, the situation for the average Russian is going to get more and more dire, and Putin is likely to be remembered as the man who removed Russia as a player on the world stage.

Boru

[Deesse23]

And here we are, with an armchair Machiavellist, wo is enjoying freedom and pluralism from the safety of his desk somehwere in California, pontificating about how the "necessity" of war, murder and oppression trumps international law and how the people of Ukraine (and everyone else) should just accept being invaded, because......it was "necessary" for a dictator to do so.

How about you move to some baltic state and wait until Putin invades you, taking away all thats valuable to you, because.........its necessary for him? Reality, and me, certainly wont give a shit about you, thats for sure.

Ha!

The “Machiavellist” would be the side that close off all possibly exist ramps for Russia in Jan and Feb, knowing Russia would have no other recourse but to invade.

Yes, the Prince would corner his enemy, force him to invade another country, then do nothing at all, but go to the UN council (of which the enemy is a member of) and get a resolution declined.

Yeah, a real sly fox this Prince.

You havent read any of Machiavelli, have you? You are still sitting behind your desk on the west coast, just waiting for Putin to send his invasion force, since......its necessary to him, ya know, and then you would run over, in spirit of Benedict Arnold and offer him a blow job, while he is taking all liberties from you, since.....its necessary, ya know.

Pathetic.