Russia and Ukraine

[Sheldon]

And Zelensky isn't invited to the grown-ups' table.

If you think Trump  is a "grown-up", you appear lacking when it comes to character insight.

And if you think peace in Ukraine can be had without Ukraine's buy-in, you're a bigger fool than you seem.

Yes, it's an odd characterisation of both men, though it's not hard to imagine why Trump is enamoured of Putin, a dictator being admired by a would be dictator hardly needs much analysis. Your point about the Ukraine is also well made, and of course they're not alone, it seems implausible that the EU and the UK will sit back and let Trump stitch up the Ukraine, and save Putin's blushes. 

Rightly demanding that the other NATO members contribute equitably is one thing, ignoring them and pretending he (Trump) can settle this with Putin alone, is quite another. Though Putin must be think his birthday and xmas have all come at once, no wonder the Russians were eagerly trying to influence the US presidential election in Trump's favour.

[The Architect Of Fate]

NATO spending is a guideline and other countries contribute far more then money which more then makes up for any short fall

[Thumpalumpacus]

Your point about the Ukraine is also well made, and of course they're not alone, it seems implausible that the EU and the UK will sit back and let Trump stitch up the Ukraine, and save Putin's blushes. 

Rightly demanding that the other NATO members contribute equitably is one thing, ignoring them and pretending he (Trump) can settle this with Putin alone, is quite another.

We Americans are ignoring one of the key takeaways of the 1938 Munich Agreement: a settlement made without the participation of a key player is inherently unstable.

[Thumpalumpacus]

NATO spending is a guideline and other countries contribute far more then money which more then makes up for any short fall

In 2014, NATO allies in Europe and Canada invested $250bn, or about 1.43 percent of their collective GDP, to defence. That figure has risen steadily over the past decade and is expected to reach $430bn, or 2.02 percent, this year.

As a portion of GDP, Poland (4.1 percent), Estonia (3.4 percent), the US (3.4 percent), Latvia (3.2 percent) and Greece (3.1 percent) spend the most while Spain (1.3 percent), Slovenia (1.3 percent), Luxembourg (1.3 percent), Belgium (1.3 percent) and Canada (1.4 percent) spend the least.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/7/11...nd-in-2024

And to be frank, I doubt 2% will be sufficient for European security, given that the longtime underfunding of defense has left many NATO countries with outdated equipment and shrunken defense plant.

One thing that pisses me off about Trumps volte-face and his justifying it by pointing to American expenditures is that those expenditures are being spent here in America, funding good jobs and keeping factories open that we will most certainly need when the balloon goes up with China. Those funds are buying the Pentagon new and up-to-date equipment as we give Ukraine our older and somewhat outdated kit.

[Sheldon]

Your point about the Ukraine is also well made, and of course they're not alone, it seems implausible that the EU and the UK will sit back and let Trump stitch up the Ukraine, and save Putin's blushes. 

Rightly demanding that the other NATO members contribute equitably is one thing, ignoring them and pretending he (Trump) can settle this with Putin alone, is quite another.

We Americans are ignoring one of the key takeaways of the 1938 Munich Agreement: a settlement made without the participation of a key player is inherently unstable.

I fear the lessons from history going unheeded are piling up. We need NATO to present a strong and united front against Putin, the exact opposite of what Trump is doing sadly.

[The Architect Of Fate]

It's funny Trump wants to make Zelensky's legitimacy as president about his approval ratings when Zelensky's approval ratings are higher then Trumps in pretty much all polls.

[Ravenshire]

And Zelensky isn't invited to the grown-ups' table.

If you think Trump  is a "grown-up", you appear lacking when it comes to character insight.

And if you think peace in Ukraine can be had without Ukraine's buy-in, you're a bigger fool than you seem.

(my bold)

Pretty bold claim, Thump.

[Belacqua]

There are conflicting reports out of Ukraine today.

One member of the Ukrainian Parliament, the Chairman of the National Defense and Intelligence Committee, says that arms shipments from the US have been halted, pending unspecified "political decisions." But a different member of parliament says that's not true.

https://ukrainetoday.org/some-companies-...kraine-mp/

Zelensky has recently said that "Ukraine has a “very low chance of survival” without U.S. weapons."

https://www.yahoo.com/news/cannot-surviv...34924.html

So the pro-war faction must feel themselves in a very precarious position. The ability to continue the war is hanging by a thread, and apparently Elon Musk is holding the scissors.

This is the beauty of having two political parties in the US, both of which work for the military industrial complex. When one party commits to sending billions, the parties switch after a little while and then they can just ignore prior commitments. When somebody decides that enough money has gone to the weapons industry for this particular conflict, they can walk away and -- who cares about "victory" or "defeat." The Taliban knew that if they held on long enough the US would get bored and walk away, and that's what happened. A couple of trillion wasted, a million lives ruined for no good reason -- eh, time to stop. No doubt Putin remembers this, because his memory goes all the way back to 2021.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Boru

[Thumpalumpacus]

So the pro-war faction [...]

There aren't any "pro-war" Ukrainians; they'd just as soon be left the hell alone. Problem is, there are pro-war Russians, starting with Putin, and it's kinda hard to be independent when another country, is, you know, shooting missiles at your energy infrastructure in the middle of winter.

You punch me in the face, I'm gonna go pro-kickyourass on you. Your framing is slipshod bullshit, and if you really believe it you would live on your knees. Most people think freedom's worth fighting for.

Your mileage clearly varies.