Seeking meaningful advice from atheists

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I have serious reservations about the notion of using Disney films as a yardstick for moral instruction.

Boru

[h311inac311]

[...] We're seeing this now in Hollywood as it is endlessly remaking and retelling old stories which resonated with millions across the world. Only now these stories have mary-sue type women who are handed everything (Mulan, Rey) because Hollywood is trying to appeal to a new kind of feminist virtue [...]

I was thinking some more about the Mary Sues. It does show an interesting development in popular media, and you're right that it expresses a change in values. 

It occurs to me that a lot of pop media is intended as wish fulfillment. We identify with a character who always wins, for whom all desires are fulfilled and all difficulties overcome. This character has the coolest stuff and the most attractive demeanor. 

For men, the paradigm is probably James Bond. Minimal backstory, good at everything, sharpest clothes, can operate any and every vehicle without training, more effective at using violence than anyone else. He gets any woman he wants but is never saddled with the negotiations required for a long term relationship. He has the coolest watch, the coolest car, etc. But note that this only includes guy stuff -- it never says he has a beautiful apartment with interiors done by a professional designer, because that would be girly. 

Then there are a thousand variations on this, with less famous characters in books and movies serving the same function. You can choose the version that appeals to you. You've got your American tough guys, your military tough guys, your rich tough guys, your tough guys living on a house boat. Etc. ad nauseam. 

Until recently the women's version of this was romance novels. Women were assumed to want different things, and these books were designed as fantasy wish fulfillment of those desires. 

Now women's desires are assumed to be, often, similar to men's. The ability to solve problems through violence, the ability to say cool one-liners to demonstrate their superior coolness. The ability to be good at every kind of technical or skillful activity, without training. 

We notice the Mary Sues as unrealistic because it's new for women, but it's really just inviting women into the same old boring fantasy that men have been buying for a very long time.

     Well if I'm not mistaken when we are first introduced to James Bond he is already in his 20's and it is implied that he has been training to become an agent for quite a some time. In addition to being naturally talented at his job, James also had to train with MI6 for many years in order to obtain all of his skills. Also, Mr. Bond does have MI6 to thank for all of his cool gadgets, cars and clothes. 
Rey, on the other hand, had to scavenge parts on a desert island and occasionally fight off bandits with here big metal pole in order to be a perfect pilot who can beat a Sith apprentice in a lightsaber duel. I get that James is a bit of a gary stu but at least his backstory makes sense for the kind of character he is. Also, there are countless times throughout the James Bond franchise where Bond gets himself into very difficult situations to get out of. Times where he is captured and needs to think of a clever way to escape or else he will face certain death. Times where he needs other agents to help him out. 

Mary sues don't need any teammates or clever thinking in order to prevail, they're just handed everything they need right from the get go and the rest of the world needs to get out of their way or face certain defeat. Nothing is earned and Mary is never in any believable form of danger so there are no steaks and no tension. This is the problem with making your main character too over-powered, especially if they don't even have any emotional or internal struggles to face. We want to see our characters grow, we want to see them overcome obstacles, not just get handed everything because the writers think they're special.

[The Grand Nudger]

Yeah we do. That's why jesus is boring.

[Belacqua]

gary stu

I'd never heard "gary stu" before. I like this! 

As I say, I haven't watched all of these shows, but I expect you're right about the drop in quality. The first Star Wars really struck a chord with people, and all Hollywood knows how to do is try to repeat the unrepeatable phenomenon, with decreasing success. 

Probably really little kids enjoy all of the different Star Wars products, and don't care that there's no reasonable character development, or anything like that. To me, part of the problem is that people haven't grown out of the things we're supposed to grow out of. Movies like this are never any more than kid stuff, and we can only expect childish writing.

It's the same with the endless Batman re-makes. The concept of Batman is ludicrous, and the increasing efforts to make the character more "gritty" and adult-oriented is a sign that grown-ups these days haven't really grown up. All that stuff has illogical premisses and impossible situations baked into it. Criticizing it for being childish is just naming it accurately. 

(And I understand that grownups can enjoy silly stories in their down time. Nobody can read Dostoevsky all the time. But silly is silly.) 

You are right, though, that all of these consumer products sell an ideology. Whether or not it is well-considered, every song, painting, and movie has a subtext and a message. And we are right to explicate that. It really is propaganda, and it really is changing how people think.

[The Grand Nudger]

If illogical premises and impossible situations being baked in reduces a narrative to childishness and indicates that adults who enjoy it haven't really grown up....where does that leave magic book and it's magic man? What does it say about christianity and christians?

[Mister Agenda]

I was thinking some more about the Mary Sues. It does show an interesting development in popular media, and you're right that it expresses a change in values. 

It occurs to me that a lot of pop media is intended as wish fulfillment. We identify with a character who always wins, for whom all desires are fulfilled and all difficulties overcome. This character has the coolest stuff and the most attractive demeanor. 

For men, the paradigm is probably James Bond. Minimal backstory, good at everything, sharpest clothes, can operate any and every vehicle without training, more effective at using violence than anyone else. He gets any woman he wants but is never saddled with the negotiations required for a long term relationship. He has the coolest watch, the coolest car, etc. But note that this only includes guy stuff -- it never says he has a beautiful apartment with interiors done by a professional designer, because that would be girly. 

Then there are a thousand variations on this, with less famous characters in books and movies serving the same function. You can choose the version that appeals to you. You've got your American tough guys, your military tough guys, your rich tough guys, your tough guys living on a house boat. Etc. ad nauseam. 

Until recently the women's version of this was romance novels. Women were assumed to want different things, and these books were designed as fantasy wish fulfillment of those desires. 

Now women's desires are assumed to be, often, similar to men's. The ability to solve problems through violence, the ability to say cool one-liners to demonstrate their superior coolness. The ability to be good at every kind of technical or skillful activity, without training. 

We notice the Mary Sues as unrealistic because it's new for women, but it's really just inviting women into the same old boring fantasy that men have been buying for a very long time.

     Well if I'm not mistaken when we are first introduced to James Bond he is already in his 20's and it is implied that he has been training to become an agent for quite a some time. In addition to being naturally talented at his job, James also had to train with MI6 for many years in order to obtain all of his skills. Also, Mr. Bond does have MI6 to thank for all of his cool gadgets, cars and clothes. 
Rey, on the other hand, had to scavenge parts on a desert island and occasionally fight off bandits with here big metal pole in order to be a perfect pilot who can beat a Sith apprentice in a lightsaber duel. I get that James is a bit of a gary stu but at least his backstory makes sense for the kind of character he is. Also, there are countless times throughout the James Bond franchise where Bond gets himself into very difficult situations to get out of. Times where he is captured and needs to think of a clever way to escape or else he will face certain death. Times where he needs other agents to help him out. 

Mary sues don't need any teammates or clever thinking in order to prevail, they're just handed everything they need right from the get go and the rest of the world needs to get out of their way or face certain defeat. Nothing is earned and Mary is never in any believable form of danger so there are no steaks and no tension. This is the problem with making your main character too over-powered, especially if they don't even have any emotional or internal struggles to face. We want to see our characters grow, we want to see them overcome obstacles, not just get handed everything because the writers think they're special.

Yeah, Star Wars never had inexperienced or relatively unskilled characters defeat improbably odds before Rey. It was completely startling given the context that in Star Wars, age and treachery always beats youth and cockeyed optimism. Then a woman lead comes along and they totally change the formula.

[Angrboda]

Oh c'mon. Who doesn't love a "local boy makes good" story?

[HappySkeptic]

What is all the bitching about Star Wars about?

It is retold fairy tale, and not very well written at that. It is the standard hero's quest. The fact that episodes 7+ is a retelling of 4-6, but with a woman in as the hero isn't a big deal. Is it against standard gender roles? Sure. Does it matter? No.

I don't think gender should be a barrier to anyone wanting to be whatever they want. I don't like reified gender roles.

[Jehanne]

What is all the bitching about Star Wars about?

It is retold fairy tale, and not very well written at that. It is the standard hero's quest. The fact that episodes 7+ is a retelling of 4-6, but with a woman in as the hero isn't a big deal. Is it against standard gender roles? Sure. Does it matter? No.

I don't think gender should be a barrier to anyone wanting to be whatever they want. I don't like reified gender roles.

It started out as a space Western that has degenerated into a soap opera.

[The Grand Nudger]

Space opera is the genre, and...interestingly, it's modeled on ww1.Lucas' brilliance here, was in melding (and explicitly so) campbells epic monomyth to a stylish narrative that calls up the spirit of a biplane dogfight, under the auspices of a cosmic but clearly naval conflict...with all the trappings of an overtly late 19th century political skullfuckery.