A Believer's Thoughts on Faith

[Deesse23]

Deesse23: it's the process of how one step leads to another.  steps A and B represent what we understand, knowing exactly how this leads to that (A leads to B), which we are fully convinced of because of universally-recognized proofs.  steps C and D (with the possibility of an E or further) represent future steps that we believe are possible though we dont have those universally-recognized proofs.

Thank your for finally agreeing with me, that you dont have any good reason to belive in your god.
Thank your for agreeing with me that faith is your excuse for believeing in lack of having any good reason. According to your own words, all you have is "faith" that in the future you may have good reasons to believe, but right now you dont have any good reasons, else you would have given them, precisely as i said.

Why do you have faith in the christian god and not in the muslim god? You might as well believe in the muslim god, hoping that in the future you will have good reasons to do so.
Are there any other topics you apply faith to (like "when will the next bus arrive") or do you apply faith only to religion/gods? If "no", why?

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Hebrews 11:1 - 'Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.'

How is this a valid path to knowledge?

Boru

[The Grand Nudger]

It kinda stretches the accepted standards of ‘evidence’ all out of shape, doesn’t it?

If a religious experience isn’t replicable, it isn’t evidence. If Jesus comes to me in a dream, how is that any more evidentiary than if Zlorg, the Slug Empress of Altair VI does the same thing? One common definition of evidence is that it is the available body of facts that are useful in determining whether or not a particular proposition is true (or at least valid). I don’t see how a spiritual or religious experience, unique to one individual, can be viewed as a fact - or even as information - to support the proposition ‘God exists’.

The most the can be said for such an experience is that it supports the claim, ‘I believe that God exists.’

Boru

There's no universal standard for evidence.

As for your dream example, in scripture a dream isn't evidence, but a dream that predicts future events with 100% accuracy is. So if Jesus appeared to you in a dream and told you everything that would happen to you in the next week, and it happens, would you not consider that as evidence?

A more credible scenario is that a person has a dream that they then fit to whatever happened to them that week..but, crucially....as far as this person is concerned - they would not be holding their faith in god in the absence of evidence - they would simply be wrong about what evidence they believed they possessed.

[Jehanne]

Oh, that's easy. Let's say that you have the Gift of Prophecy. If so, I will toss a quarter next Tuesday 100 times. You tell me the exact sequence of heads/tails that I will get, put it in an encrypted email and send it to me. I will perform the experiment, recording my results, sending them to you, or, better yet, a third party. In the presence of all, the predictions and results will be opened and compared. We both can insure integrity by supplying the passwords at the same time, live and "on the air".

I was looking for a yes or no answer, not a whole speech... all that and you still manage to not provide any answer.

I suppose then that my answer would be "Yes".

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

It kinda stretches the accepted standards of ‘evidence’ all out of shape, doesn’t it?

If a religious experience isn’t replicable, it isn’t evidence. If Jesus comes to me in a dream, how is that any more evidentiary than if Zlorg, the Slug Empress of Altair VI does the same thing? One common definition of evidence is that it is the available body of facts that are useful in determining whether or not a particular proposition is true (or at least valid). I don’t see how a spiritual or religious experience, unique to one individual, can be viewed as a fact - or even as information - to support the proposition ‘God exists’.

The most the can be said for such an experience is that it supports the claim, ‘I believe that God exists.’

Boru

There's no universal standard for evidence.

As for your dream example, in scripture a dream isn't evidence, but a dream that predicts future events with 100% accuracy is. So if Jesus appeared to you in a dream and told you everything that would happen to you in the next week, and it happens, would you not consider that as evidence?

No, I would not consider that as evidence. Here’s why:

If Logar The Lord of Feces came to you in a dream and told you everything that would happen to you next week, and it happens, which is more likely - that Logar exists and you should worship his holy bowels, or that it was all an amazing coincidence?

Boru

Edit: If a Christian were to have the Jesus dream you described, I would be likely to chalk up the subsequent events as a self-fulfilling prophecy (which would make it not a ‘prophecy’ at all).

[rlp21858]

Jehanne: i agree it would be an impressive feat, but it seems to me this stems from a belief that God is the breaking of the laws of physics/nature/etc and reveals himself by breaking those laws. *where did you get this belief?

Grand Nudger: i think you understand what i was trying to say, but i would think of your illustration as more like "faith flexing" (like muscle): how much lasting faith do you expect to develop in one sitting (furniture..that's maybe a few hours?). i believe faith grows, so the real faith is what you have when youre in a "relaxed state".

hello Peebo-Thuhlu,

my reason for being here is not to force a conclusion on anyone, but only to try to make sure people understand what they mean when they say that they dont believe in God. i think i have a question about your #2, but i'm short on time. i plan to check later though.

[arewethereyet]

Jehanne: i agree it would be an impressive feat, but it seems to me this stems from a belief that God is the breaking of the laws of physics/nature/etc and reveals himself by breaking those laws.  *where did you get this belief?

Grand Nudger: i think you understand what i was trying to say, but i would think of your illustration as more like "faith flexing" (like muscle): how much  lasting faith do you expect to develop in one sitting (furniture..that's maybe a few hours?).  i believe faith grows, so the real faith is what you have when youre in a "relaxed state".  

hello Peebo-Thuhlu,

my reason for being here is not to force a conclusion on anyone, but only to try to make sure people understand what they mean when they say that they dont believe in God. i think i have a question about your #2, but i'm short on time.  i plan to check later though.

What people mean when they say they don't believe in god is that they don't believe in god.  Surely, that's not difficult to understand.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Jehanne: i agree it would be an impressive feat, but it seems to me this stems from a belief that God is the breaking of the laws of physics/nature/etc and reveals himself by breaking those laws.  *where did you get this belief?

Grand Nudger: i think you understand what i was trying to say, but i would think of your illustration as more like "faith flexing" (like muscle): how much  lasting faith do you expect to develop in one sitting (furniture..that's maybe a few hours?).  i believe faith grows, so the real faith is what you have when youre in a "relaxed state".  

hello Peebo-Thuhlu,

my reason for being here is not to force a conclusion on anyone, but only to try to make sure people understand what they mean when they say that they dont believe in God. i think i have a question about your #2, but i'm short on time.  i plan to check later though.

If I were to tell you that I don’t believe in Santa Claus, Bigfoot, or trickle-down economics, would you think I would have trouble understanding what I mean?

Boru

[The Grand Nudger]

Some people just aren’t fertile ground for the growth of faith, if that’s actually a thing and the comparison applies.

[Mister Agenda]

If God can reveal the future in dreams, why not under controlled conditions?  Why all the cosmic Hide & Seek?

I don't think you gave a clear answer on if you would consider the example given as evidence.

A detailed prophetic dream that was verified would probably convince the person having the experience that at least something beyond our current comprehension had occurred. If they documented the experience and events carefully, others might find it convincing as well. It would take something like Jehanne is proposing to establish it scentifically.