The useless bit is that there's always some argle bargle demand that atheists define themselves in such and such a way, but rarely is there ever any further discussion of the matter if, for example, a person pops up and says "not atheism, but I do hold such and such a position as well".

Deesse23: it's the process of how one step leads to another. steps A and B represent what we understand, knowing exactly how this leads to that (A leads to B), which we are fully convinced of because of universally-recognized proofs. steps C and D (with the possibility of an E or further) represent future steps that we believe are possible though we dont have those universally-recognized proofs.

Jehanne: why do you think that a spontaneously healed amputee would prove that God exists?

the last statement leads to what ive been meaning to ask the members. for any who feel these questions are applicable and are willing to answer them:

1)what do you believe about God?
2)in short description, on what information did you base this conclusion?
3)and in what ways have you tested the information to make your conclusion final?

(June 30, 2022 at 7:41 pm)rlp21858 Wrote: Jehanne: why do you think that a spontaneously healed amputee would prove that God exists?

Such would violate the Law of the Conservation of Energy.

(June 29, 2022 at 1:32 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(June 29, 2022 at 12:38 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I'm with the Huggster on this one.  People often believe that they have at least some evidence for the articles of their faith - so it's probably not accurate to say that faith is a thing held in the absence of or in contradiction to evidence.  We might accurately say that faith entails a certainty that the hypothetical evidence referenced doesn't actually meet...but hey, minor details.  I have faith in my wife's fidelity, even though no fact of her not having stepped out before can actually guarantee that she won't step out tomorrow.  Maybe the tomorrow guy is super awesome.

More esoterically, a "faith" can be devised by reference only to things that any given person deems to be (and actually are) objectively and demonstrably true.  The only real question is not whether things are some particular way, but whether we agree that they should be that way.  Even if we think (or are willing to concede) that there's good evidence that life was magicked onto earth - for example...so what?

It kinda stretches the accepted standards of ‘evidence’ all out of shape, doesn’t it?

If a religious experience isn’t replicable, it isn’t evidence. If Jesus comes to me in a dream, how is that any more evidentiary than if Zlorg, the Slug Empress of Altair VI does the same thing? One common definition of evidence is that it is the available body of facts that are useful in determining whether or not a particular proposition is true (or at least valid). I don’t see how a spiritual or religious experience, unique to one individual, can be viewed as a fact - or even as information - to support the proposition ‘God exists’.

The most the can be said for such an experience is that it supports the claim, ‘I believe that God exists.’

Boru

There's no universal standard for evidence.

As for your dream example, in scripture a dream isn't evidence, but a dream that predicts future events with 100% accuracy is. So if Jesus appeared to you in a dream and told you everything that would happen to you in the next week, and it happens, would you not consider that as evidence?

(June 30, 2022 at 8:57 pm)Huggy Bear Wrote: As for your dream example, in scripture a dream isn't evidence, but a dream that predicts future events with 100% accuracy is. So if Jesus appeared to you in a dream and told you everything that would happen to you in the next week, and it happens, would you not consider that as evidence?

If God can reveal the future in dreams, why not under controlled conditions? Why all the cosmic Hide & Seek?

[quote pid='2107922' dateline='1656632495']

The last statement leads to what ive been meaning to ask the members.  for any who feel these questions are applicable and are willing to answer them:

1)what do you believe about God?
2)in short description, on what information did you base this conclusion?
3)and in what ways have you tested the information to make your conclusion final?
[/quote]

  Hello! 

1) So, depending on how you're using the word 'Belief' I either have lots of ideas/concepets about the word/subject OR practically nothing at all.

If you're using the word 'Belief' in such a way as to map to concept then I've encountered many 'God' concpets over the year. From Zeus to Winslow.

If you're using the word 'Belief' as in what I know to "Be real" then I've nothing at all about any diety.

2) Again, all my 'Information' is accrued over decades of existence. What I've learend through discours with others, reading, radio, telvision, internet etc.

3) Tested all the different concepts I've encountered? why test a concept that simply doesn't map to reality? Do I need travel to the top of Mount Olympus to challenge the existance of Zeus? (As one example)

Or the concept of something supposedly  existing 'Out side of spoace and time'. Great, how does such a thing interact WITH reality (Assuming it's also a 'Personal' diety) in real time? Where are its tentacle prints on physicallity around us?

Hope those replies help.  

Not at work.

(June 30, 2022 at 9:02 pm)Jehanne Wrote:

(June 30, 2022 at 8:57 pm)Huggy Bear Wrote: As for your dream example, in scripture a dream isn't evidence, but a dream that predicts future events with 100% accuracy is. So if Jesus appeared to you in a dream and told you everything that would happen to you in the next week, and it happens, would you not consider that as evidence?

If God can reveal the future in dreams, why not under controlled conditions?  Why all the cosmic Hide & Seek?

I don't think you gave a clear answer on if you would consider the example given as evidence.

(June 30, 2022 at 9:38 pm)Huggy Bear Wrote:

(June 30, 2022 at 9:02 pm)Jehanne Wrote: If God can reveal the future in dreams, why not under controlled conditions?  Why all the cosmic Hide & Seek?

I don't think you gave a clear answer on if you would consider the example given as evidence.

Oh, that's easy. Let's say that you have the Gift of Prophecy. If so, I will toss a quarter next Tuesday 100 times. You tell me the exact sequence of heads/tails that I will get, put it in an encrypted email and send it to me. I will perform the experiment, recording my results, sending them to you, or, better yet, a third party. In the presence of all, the predictions and results will be opened and compared. We both can insure integrity by supplying the passwords at the same time, live and "on the air".

(June 30, 2022 at 9:38 pm)Huggy Bear Wrote:

(June 30, 2022 at 9:02 pm)Jehanne Wrote: If God can reveal the future in dreams, why not under controlled conditions?  Why all the cosmic Hide & Seek?

I don't think you gave a clear answer on if you would consider the example given as evidence.

You haven't either, ever. But bless your heart you try.

RAmen

(June 30, 2022 at 9:55 pm)Jehanne Wrote:

(June 30, 2022 at 9:38 pm)Huggy Bear Wrote: I don't think you gave a clear answer on if you would consider the example given as evidence.

Oh, that's easy. Let's say that you have the Gift of Prophecy. If so, I will toss a quarter next Tuesday 100 times. You tell me the exact sequence of heads/tails that I will get, put it in an encrypted email and send it to me. I will perform the experiment, recording my results, sending them to you, or, better yet, a third party. In the presence of all, the predictions and results will be opened and compared. We both can insure integrity by supplying the passwords at the same time, live and "on the air".

I was looking for a yes or no answer, not a whole speech... all that and you still manage to not provide any answer.